Also in my limited experience as compared to the other Gentlemen on board, I would like to emphasise the importance of good equaliser settings. I have almost found a new player in my same old Technics and the same old cart, and of course the same old amp just by equaliser settings. These days I am enjoying the sound much more than earlier by turning all equaliser settings to almost flat. The sound is much much warmer, forgiving on surface noise of records, and purely free from listening fatigue. In all, I am enjoying the music much more without spending a penny!
Its raining vintage TTs
- Thread starter sachu888
- Start date
For the sake of maintaining the peace and sanity, let's confine this thread to idler drives as this thread seems to be mainly about Lenco idler drives.
Idler versus direct drives, direct drives versus belt drives, etc has been discussed ad nauseam even in this forum, and we have proven that there are no conclusive answers. There are good examples of each type. Ditto bad examples.
Idler versus direct drives, direct drives versus belt drives, etc has been discussed ad nauseam even in this forum, and we have proven that there are no conclusive answers. There are good examples of each type. Ditto bad examples.
sachu888
Well-Known Member
reubensm
Well-Known Member
+1, yes indeed
kuruvilajacob
Well-Known Member
I have had quite a lot of criticism from some FMs for advocating that Technics SL1210 series do not come to the standard of major idlers like Garrard 301,401, Thorens TD-124 or Lenco L-75. I am happy that some FMs have now confirmed my earlier postings on this subject. But some models of Technics certainly sound better than SL-1210 series . IMO SL-Q3, SL-1300 Mark2, SL-1700 Mark 2 and a few others sound warm and musical . I am not saying SL-1210 series or SL-1200 series is not good, but they sound thin IMO because of the heavy damping given to absorb resonance from dance floors when used by DJs
Yes you are probably right. I guess since 1200 is very well damped not only resonance but other frequencies and harmonics too are mmm lets say not consolidated. Earlier I used to think Plinth design only affects resonance and vibrations but it is said all regions of frequency are affected by how plinth is made. Stiffness controls the lower region of fq. response. If anyone has 1200 he can experiment by removing felt and rubber feet and other damped objects. Also would like to add that 1200 Tonearm is meant to track well so I think low compliance carts. are used which may affect sound character. But for speed accuracy and torque they are top notch.
Since Lencos with plinth are considered having good bass and slam, I overdid the feet in the design posted with felt+sorbothane+spikes. I guess this would give tight punchy low fqs. But I am not sure.
Member 'Cats squirrel' of diyAudio has done some work on plinth designs. Both measured and by listening. And my design was some what based on it except side panel, sandwiched layers and ballbearing/sand ideas. Some things like how much mass should be used are controversial so needs to be explored practically.
Regards.
thanks for jogging my memory. he used to post on the lenco forum also if I remember right
do read this
Last edited:
Yes arjun. Have read that. Very good info there. Other Person I like is Romy the cat. He has also done some good work on turntables.
Some fundamentals of sound/vibration/resonance etc. Which I have read.
Transmission of Sound across Medium Boundaries
This is for vehicle sound proofing, but very informative. May help in understanding plinth design.
http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:317219/FULLTEXT01.pdf
Thx and regards
Some fundamentals of sound/vibration/resonance etc. Which I have read.
Transmission of Sound across Medium Boundaries
This is for vehicle sound proofing, but very informative. May help in understanding plinth design.
http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:317219/FULLTEXT01.pdf
Thx and regards
reubensm
Well-Known Member
sorry for the off-topic diversion again but this is the discussion that got me thinking, involves my very same SL 3200
Showdown; Direct Drive verses Belt Drive - two oldies go at it
anyone noticed any difference between he lenco's vertical idler vs the garrad's horizontal idler?
Showdown; Direct Drive verses Belt Drive - two oldies go at it
anyone noticed any difference between he lenco's vertical idler vs the garrad's horizontal idler?
Last edited:
kuruvilajacob
Well-Known Member
Reuben,
Frankly, I don't remember how SL-3200 sounds though I do remember it passing through my hands and one of the several players I have sold. It may be in the same league as may be SL-Q3 or SL Q 33 or SL-D 3 or 3.
Frankly, I don't remember how SL-3200 sounds though I do remember it passing through my hands and one of the several players I have sold. It may be in the same league as may be SL-Q3 or SL Q 33 or SL-D 3 or 3.
You will have to to refer to this post again
there have been several inconclusive comparisons..in the end the Garrard is a much more sophistated mechanism and forget the idler, even the motor bearings are also different so ...YMMV.
BTW there are folks who have changed the idler orientation of the Lenco into a horizondal Rim drive by taking out the motor onto a separate body !!
I have read that the benefit of Lelco's driving the underside of the platter through a vertical pulley, has the advantage of a uniform contact between them, as against the rim drives which may have machining irregularities in the rim, affecting the continuous contact required.
sachu888
Well-Known Member
Shure M44-7, probably the most popular DJ cartridge ever and widely favoured by DJs for scratching, has a compliance of 20 x 10^-6 cm/dyne, which makes it mid to high compliance. However, very low compliance cartridge like Denon DL 103 also works quite well on the 1200. It is versatile.
But I have doubts here: is the 1200's arm damped? And is the body panel damped? I do know that the footers provide excellent damping.
Felt + sorbothane + spikes: I am not sure how this combo will work, because felt will be absorbing vibrations, sorbothane will be even more absorbing, while spike will drain off the vibration. I have never tried them in combination but I have used separately ceramic ball based footer, brass footer and squash balls (on the same TT). They do sound different but not by much.
sachu888
Well-Known Member
Hi Joshua,
1200 arm is not damped,but I think body panels comes with rubber damping.Some people feel that it is over damped and run it without bottom cover.
Regards,
Sachin
Gerry_the_Merry
Well-Known Member
Machining irregularities in rim in Garrard will change the radius and hence the speed (microscopically). In lenco any such irregularities will not really impact radius (because the irregularities will be vertical) and hence not really impact speed. That said, such high precision manufacturing should not result in material irregularities in the heavy metal platters. You would need a super high resolution system before any such differential is discovered. Nice to talk about, though.
Joshua,
compliance of 20 is way above mid. I had 44-7 and on few occasion have dropped tonearm on vinyl. Very stiff cantilever. More tracking force also helps DJs. The point I was guessing is DJ cartridge may have different character.
As for Spikes..
Regards
compliance of 20 is way above mid. I had 44-7 and on few occasion have dropped tonearm on vinyl. Very stiff cantilever. More tracking force also helps DJs. The point I was guessing is DJ cartridge may have different character.
As for Spikes..
...as said in above post, If members have found Lencos sound punchy with more bass and slam, I guessed since Lencos use heavy (mass) plinths room acoustic may be affecting the plinth through floor contact and are consolidating or enhancing particular fq. region. Spikes will not drain of vibrations but will present low point of contact to restrict these floor vibrations from entering the plinth. Felt and sorbothane will help even more. So we may get more refined response without loosing the punch which Lencos are famous for. OR other opposite way was to remove sl-1200 feet and listen to the difference it represents.
Regards
While my 1200mk2 was on solid rack which had spikes below, it was having good bass and thick vocals. After I moved that to tnt flexi rack of 3 legs, it sounded shrill. Then I made it rack of 4 legs. Things improved but not same as earlier. Now I added four pieces of door mat below feet, granite slab below mat and another mat below granite. So it's good bass but still I am lacking its earlier punch by 20-25%.
So what could be summarised from my experience?
So what could be summarised from my experience?
Beats me Om. I read 1200 sounding thin so worked out a way to refine Lenco but if spikes are adding good bass it may not work on refinement part. But I also see Lencos with heavy plinth and spikes. What could be the cause ? cart-tonearm-plinth matching ? Design is modular spikes/felt/sorbothane can be removed if it is affecting in negative way.
Regards
Hiten, the philosophy to be used for the lenco is to increase mass..so my view is it should be coupling instead of decoupling. hence spikes on to a heavier mass platform should work out better.
In your design, ill suggest one more thing..instead of only MDF..keep the topmost wood layer as MDF and the rest could be Marine ply.
MDF by itself invariably sucks out the midrange harmonics..but coupled with other woods it works better.
In your design, ill suggest one more thing..instead of only MDF..keep the topmost wood layer as MDF and the rest could be Marine ply.
MDF by itself invariably sucks out the midrange harmonics..but coupled with other woods it works better.
A beautiful, well-constructed speaker with class-leading soundstage, imaging and bass that is fast, deep, and precise.
