Recommendations for a R2R DAC

[Yelamanchili manohar]

Okay. For active setups, you should get in touch with Acoustic portrait. They have created some of the best active setups that I have heard. Unless you have someone competent helping you in Hyderabad.

Thanks a ton for the heads up

Will keep that in mind for the future. As of now, Iam pretty much on my own at the moment

Got the required components like amps, dirac, preamps and active crossover etc. Since I have too much of leisure time, thought this will be a interesting learning curve for me

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

I think you are referring to me . Yes. The initial plan was to upgrade to Terminator Plus along with Jayz audio CDT. But dropped since it was getting out of my budget. Moreover, there has always been this doubt on "Which connection is better between the CDT and DAC and which cables to look for?". So, I decided to get a single box solution and be done with it. So got Marantz SA10 after a bit of research. The DAC in SA10 is absolutely stunning and it has got a great transport to match.

Lovely decision in the end. Would be very helpful if you can compare your listening experiences between the terminator and the SA-10. As the terminator has been the default drool worthy dac in recent times

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

I think you are referring to me . Yes. The initial plan was to upgrade to Terminator Plus along with Jayz audio CDT. But dropped since it was getting out of my budget. Moreover, there has always been this doubt on "Which connection is better between the CDT and DAC and which cables to look for?". So, I decided to get a single box solution and be done with it. So got Marantz SA10 after a bit of research. The DAC in SA10 is absolutely stunning and it has got a great transport to match.

Lovely decision in the end. Would be very helpful if you can compare your listening experiences between the terminator and the SA-10. As the terminator has been the default drool worthy dac in recent times

 

[Miany]

Lovely decision in the end. Would be very helpful if you can compare your listening experiences between the terminator and the SA-10. As the terminator has been the default drool worthy dac in recent times

Too early to do a comparison since the player has clocked just more than 15 hours (need at least 100 hours as per various user-reviews), while the Terminator was properly burned-in.

SA-10 is very different sounding when compared to usual Marantz players including SA 8005 and below.

The initial couple of days were a roller-coaster ride in terms of SQ. Some of the tracks sounded brilliant than Terminator while for some tracks, I felt Terminator sounded a little bit more engaging. For e.g, Diana Krall sounded more open and real with SA-10 while songs from our own film "PIKU" seemed to be more enjoyable with Terminator.

After 4 days or so, the player started to sing and there has been this steady huge grin on my face during listening since then. I am not so sure how to put the impressions in audiophile terms. I will try to summarize though.

For normal CDs and 44.1 PCM files from Tidal an Qobuz,

- Tonality seems to a bit more real with the Marantz. Instruments and voices sound more real here.
- I dont know what is related to this - But I had to reduce the speaker toe-in when compared to the Terminator, to get more engaging sound.
- Highs on the terminator sounded a bit more airy and extended. The Marantz does not have that much of a sparkling top-end; at least not yet.
- Instrument separation is better in SA-10. Every instrument is better placed in the soundstage.

For SACDs and DSD files,

- Marantz is better when compared to Hi-Res PCM playback on Terminator.

Marantz seems to demand a larger listening room while Terminator was relatively easy to accommodate in my smaller room. Hopefully, in few months time, this Covid crisis will be over and I will be able to move to my new place with a bigger dedicated listening room.

Please keep in mind that whatever better aspects of SA-10 i have put, i have been splitting hairs here. Its not a deal breaker in anyway. Terminator is absolutely a beautiful sounding DAC and deserve every accolade. Had it not been for my need for a dedicated CD player that can be used as DAC as well, I would not have let it go.

However, Its strange that SA-10 has not received the deserved recognition. Everywhere, only the END USERS are praising them. Not much YouTube reviews either. To summarize, the last creation of the GREAT ISHIWATA SAN is a stunner and keeper!

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

Too early to do a comparison since the player has clocked just more than 15 hours (need at least 100 hours as per various user-reviews), while the Terminator was properly burned-in.

SA-10 is very different sounding when compared to usual Marantz players including SA 8005 and below.

The initial couple of days were a roller-coaster ride in terms of SQ. Some of the tracks sounded brilliant than Terminator while for some tracks, I felt Terminator sounded a little bit more engaging. For e.g, Diana Krall sounded more open and real with SA-10 while songs from our own film "PIKU" seemed to be more enjoyable with Terminator.

After 4 days or so, the player started to sing and there has been this steady huge grin on my face during listening since then. I am not so sure how to put the impressions in audiophile terms. I will try to summarize though.

For normal CDs and 44.1 PCM files from Tidal an Qobuz,

- Tonality seems to a bit more real with the Marantz. Instruments and voices sound more real here.
- I dont know what is related to this - But I had to reduce the speaker toe-in when compared to the Terminator, to get more engaging sound.
- Highs on the terminator sounded a bit more airy and extended. The Marantz does not have that much of a sparkling top-end; at least not yet.
- Instrument separation is better in SA-10. Every instrument is better placed in the soundstage.

For SACDs and DSD files,

- Marantz is better when compared to Hi-Res PCM playback on Terminator.

Marantz seems to demand a larger listening room while Terminator was relatively easy to accommodate in my smaller room. Hopefully, in few months time, this Covid crisis will be over and I will be able to move to my new place with a bigger dedicated listening room.

Please keep in mind that whatever better aspects of SA-10 i have put, i have been splitting hairs here. Its not a deal breaker in anyway. Terminator is absolutely a beautiful sounding DAC and deserve every accolade. Had it not been for my need for a dedicated CD player that can be used as DAC as well, I would not have let it go.

However, Its strange that SA-10 has not received the deserved recognition. Everywhere, only the END USERS are praising them. Not much YouTube reviews either. To summarize the last creation of the GREAT ISHIWATA SAN is a stunner and keeper!

Wow...that was a lovely read indeed

Thanks for sharing. It is indeed true that the higher end marantz components from the SA and the ruby series don't get much press coverage. Heard that was because of san ken ishiwata's dislike for paid reviews.

But you've landed yourselves a reference peice of gear, built by the grand master. Enjoy

 

[malvai]

Too early to do a comparison since the player has clocked just more than 15 hours (need at least 100 hours as per various user-reviews), while the Terminator was properly burned-in.

SA-10 is very different sounding when compared to usual Marantz players including SA 8005 and below.

The initial couple of days were a roller-coaster ride in terms of SQ. Some of the tracks sounded brilliant than Terminator while for some tracks, I felt Terminator sounded a little bit more engaging. For e.g, Diana Krall sounded more open and real with SA-10 while songs from our own film "PIKU" seemed to be more enjoyable with Terminator.

After 4 days or so, the player started to sing and there has been this steady huge grin on my face during listening since then. I am not so sure how to put the impressions in audiophile terms. I will try to summarize though.

For normal CDs and 44.1 PCM files from Tidal an Qobuz,

- Tonality seems to a bit more real with the Marantz. Instruments and voices sound more real here.
- I dont know what is related to this - But I had to reduce the speaker toe-in when compared to the Terminator, to get more engaging sound.
- Highs on the terminator sounded a bit more airy and extended. The Marantz does not have that much of a sparkling top-end; at least not yet.
- Instrument separation is better in SA-10. Every instrument is better placed in the soundstage.

For SACDs and DSD files,

- Marantz is better when compared to Hi-Res PCM playback on Terminator.

Marantz seems to demand a larger listening room while Terminator was relatively easy to accommodate in my smaller room. Hopefully, in few months time, this Covid crisis will be over and I will be able to move to my new place with a bigger dedicated listening room.

Please keep in mind that whatever better aspects of SA-10 i have put, i have been splitting hairs here. Its not a deal breaker in anyway. Terminator is absolutely a beautiful sounding DAC and deserve every accolade. Had it not been for my need for a dedicated CD player that can be used as DAC as well, I would not have let it go.

However, Its strange that SA-10 has not received the deserved recognition. Everywhere, only the END USERS are praising them. Not much YouTube reviews either. To summarize, the last creation of the GREAT ISHIWATA SAN is a stunner and keeper!

I keep saying this... Marantz doesn't spend money on advertising... and hence never gets reviews... but yeah... their top-end stuff costs less than half of what the boutique brands are offering and sounds as good, if not better... Open the hood and see inside... superb engineering and design too!

 

[Miany]

superb engineering and design too!

Yes. Their DAC implementation is really interesting and that was one of the main reasons that attracted me towards SA-10. I think PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC also has a similar implementation based on "DSD up sampling and subsequent filtering". Even I heard Mr.Ishiwata San saying in one of the product launch videos that this has indeed surpassed his expectations.

 

[rsjaurr]

Too early to do a comparison since the player has clocked just more than 15 hours (need at least 100 hours as per various user-reviews), while the Terminator was properly burned-in.

SA-10 is very different sounding when compared to usual Marantz players including SA 8005 and below.

The initial couple of days were a roller-coaster ride in terms of SQ. Some of the tracks sounded brilliant than Terminator while for some tracks, I felt Terminator sounded a little bit more engaging. For e.g, Diana Krall sounded more open and real with SA-10 while songs from our own film "PIKU" seemed to be more enjoyable with Terminator.

After 4 days or so, the player started to sing and there has been this steady huge grin on my face during listening since then. I am not so sure how to put the impressions in audiophile terms. I will try to summarize though.

For normal CDs and 44.1 PCM files from Tidal an Qobuz,

- Tonality seems to a bit more real with the Marantz. Instruments and voices sound more real here.
- I dont know what is related to this - But I had to reduce the speaker toe-in when compared to the Terminator, to get more engaging sound.
- Highs on the terminator sounded a bit more airy and extended. The Marantz does not have that much of a sparkling top-end; at least not yet.
- Instrument separation is better in SA-10. Every instrument is better placed in the soundstage.

For SACDs and DSD files,

- Marantz is better when compared to Hi-Res PCM playback on Terminator.

Marantz seems to demand a larger listening room while Terminator was relatively easy to accommodate in my smaller room. Hopefully, in few months time, this Covid crisis will be over and I will be able to move to my new place with a bigger dedicated listening room.

Please keep in mind that whatever better aspects of SA-10 i have put, i have been splitting hairs here. Its not a deal breaker in anyway. Terminator is absolutely a beautiful sounding DAC and deserve every accolade. Had it not been for my need for a dedicated CD player that can be used as DAC as well, I would not have let it go.

However, Its strange that SA-10 has not received the deserved recognition. Everywhere, only the END USERS are praising them. Not much YouTube reviews either. To summarize, the last creation of the GREAT ISHIWATA SAN is a stunner and keeper!

After owning SA10 for more than a year now I also feel the same. I only tested once and found the DAC inside SA10 though sounds different but is as much likable as Metrum Adagio. Sa10 is built like a tank and is also very heavy. The interior pictures on the net are proof of its quality.

The only thing missing is AES output IMO.

 

[Sonicmasala]

Bros,
Have you heard the Aya dacs from Audial? Simply analog sounding! I’m using the Aya 4 Dac in my system. Aya dacs are based on the TDA1541A chip set. Currently there is a ongoing poll for a AYA 5Dac DIY PCB kit. Do check it out at https://www.audialonline.com/blog/usb-interface-and-aya-2021-editions-poll/

 

[kartick]

Bros,
Have you heard the Aya dacs from Audial? Simply analog sounding! I’m using the Aya 4 Dac in my system. Aya dacs are based on the TDA1541A chip set. Currently there is a ongoing poll for a AYA 5Dac DIY PCB kit. Do check it out at https://www.audialonline.com/blog/usb-interface-and-aya-2021-editions-poll/

Pedja is a genius and a legend. I have been supremely interested to try out the Audial S5 someday. Did you compare the Aya with the S5? Will be extremely keen to know your thoughts.

 

[kratu]

Last week, I took the Peter Daniel NOS DAC from storage and gave it another chance. This time with an open mind. Yes, it still sounds diffused. Yes, it lacks the details but I learnt to appreciate the organic sound which is airy, fluidic and most importantly; non-fatiguing. I can say that this R2R camp does sound promising. Yet, I’m a bit apprehensive. The aspects such as details, transparency are critical due to my listening preferences. I can see that this tech has a trade off when it comes to agility and resolution.

Fortunately, the new wave of this yesteryear technology tries to address these issues. After combing through many articles and reviews, I found one DAC which is said to do well in balancing these two. This is Holo Audio May (or its sibling, the Spring). This is getting some good reviews. It is my current favourite and is on top of the wishlist. Folks, who have tried this can chime in (with any comparisons).

 

[OM_2K19]

What are the strengths of R2R DACs? Why do some prefer these?
Are there any downsides to R2R architecture? (A deal breaker for me is lack of agility, macro-dynamics.)

I hope this helps.

Delta Sigma vs Non-oversampling R2R DAC Designs

A reflection on digital to analogue conversion concepts based on theory and practice There is a never-ending debate on the topic of what is better: Delta Sigma (DS) or R2R (R/2R or resistor ladder) DAC designs.

sw1xad.co.uk

 

[kartick]

Another DAC on the block: R2R ladder based, 36 ohms output impedance, 1.2 V RMS output, active attenuation, no active gain devices or transformers. Drives headphones too. Optical Input.

View attachment 60580

Keen to listen to this dac if I ever get a chance. I tried a lot to arrange a listening session for the previous EC Design dac but apparently it is tough to get one. Anyway, how would you describe the sonic characters of the Power Dac vs the previous one?

 

[kartick]

By the end of this year, you may have a chance to listen to both at my place and compare. We strive for musicality and emotional engagement with our setups and source/transport are stepping stones, both deliver that. Will post a brief review of the Power DAC R soon.

Absolutely true about source/transport being at the top of any digital playback chain. But as much as I read about the backstory of ECD’s designers, they are aiming for their dacs to be source independent!!

Anyway, looking forward to your impressions. Also, do you have this dac already with you or was this a picture of someone else’s unit?

 

[audiodelic]

Musician Audio

Pegasus has great reviews with some controversial ones but exception not the majority, Aquarius is supposed to be very very good for the budget it plays in.

Buy the media player MDP-2 and have a I2S connection going to the dac and get to sq nirvana, people finding perceptible difference v/s optical/coaxial.

 

[Kumar442244]

View attachment 60640

Guess what above is ? Treasures were made in the past and not repeated till date. And Japanese seem to have them all !

Just my wild guess by looking at the CD slot. Is this a CD player with R2R DAC?

 

[dgg]

R2r dacs have a Natural Tonality, the higher end ones will get you better resolution and Soundstage.
The uncanny familiarity with the sound (Especially to people who have heard those tracks via Analog Sources, sometime in their audiophile journey) is quite impressive. The nostalgia of Analog sound with user friendliness of Digital Format makes R2R DACs a quite compelling buy.

My Experience from :
Phillips Tda based R2R
Schiit Gungnir Multibit
Denafrips Ares2
AMR 777
Metrum Amethyst
AudioNote level 1/2 DACs
&
I own Denafrips Terminator currently ; I have owned/heard multiple D/S DACs in the past few years and Denafrips Terminator beats most of them in Tonality and Resolution as well. Obviously you need a good resolving system to make out the differences. The Sound Signature of the R2R DAC never goes out of fashion, so it is mostly timeless device for long-term ownership.

If you are a discerning listener who emphasize on Tonality over THD & Sound Signature Over SNR ; Then R2R DAC is a must for you. Go ahead with the best R2R DAC you can afford and you will be content for a long time.

Hello Drkrack, From where you have purchased Denafrips DAC in Inida? How the service and reliability.

 

[vineetrad]

Wrt R2R dacs - I have owned or heard extensively the Metrum Onyx, Metrum Amethyst, Denafrips Terminator, Holo Spring L2 and Holo May. Have only briefly heard the Sonnet Morpheus so will not comment on it.

The Holo May is by far the best. The Terminator (v1) comes next. The T+ along with the Gaia DDC is supposedly on par with the May. No personal experience. The Onyx is surprisingly good for the price. I would class it as the best bang for buck option. The Holo Spring L2 comes in next and lastly the Amethyst which is significantly outclassed. It is in the same price category as my Gumby (which I prefer) and the Ares which I didn't like much. Unfortunately this is largely in line with the relative costs of these various models. The only standout being the Onyx wrt price to performance. The Holo (especially the Spring) tends to paint instruments and voices as overly large in the soundstage when used with speakers, vocals are also slightly recessed. Some hate the effect some love it. I liked it quite a bit.

I don't know how they sound with headphones as I do not use them.

Hope that helps someone.

 

[Credoh]

Wrt R2R dacs - I have owned or heard extensively the Metrum Onyx, Metrum Amethyst, Denafrips Terminator, Holo Spring L2 and Holo May. Have only briefly heard the Sonnet Morpheus so will not comment on it.

The Holo May is by far the best. The Terminator (v1) comes next. The T+ along with the Gaia DDC is supposedly on par with the May. No personal experience. The Onyx is surprisingly good for the price. I would class it as the best bang for buck option. The Holo Spring L2 comes in next and lastly the Amethyst which is significantly outclassed. It is in the same price category as my Gumby (which I prefer) and the Ares which I didn't like much. Unfortunately this is largely in line with the relative costs of these various models. The only standout being the Onyx wrt price to performance. The Holo (especially the Spring) tends to paint instruments and voices as overly large in the soundstage when used with speakers, vocals are also slightly recessed. Some hate the effect some love it. I liked it quite a bit.

I don't know how they sound with headphones as I do not use them.

Hope that helps someone.

Thanks @vineetrad for sharing your experiences. Could you expand on what about the Ares left you disappointed? The web is gushing with praise for it. Also, what advice would you have for someone who's never heard an r2r before, does not have access to auditioning one but would like to dip their toes in this space without selling an organ..

 

[raghupb]

Thanks @vineetrad for sharing your experiences. Could you expand on what about the Ares left you disappointed? The web is gushing with praise for it. Also, what advice would you have for someone who's never heard an r2r before, does not have access to auditioning one but would like to dip their toes in this space without selling an organ..

If buying from US or EU and hand carrying is an option:
Soekris 1021 based DIY build. It will be cheaper than most commercial DACs
Or wait for one of Soekris FBUs to come on sale

Cheers,
Raghu