Recommendations for a R2R DAC

[kratu]

New age R2R no longer has that romantic mids like those we get from Metrum Pavane or Sonic Frontier DACS. Holo May and all will actually sound bright if not paired correctly

I have heard this opinion before. Perhaps, to rectify the issues with detail retrieval and resolution, they got too close to a Delta-Sigma based DAC? Personally, I would appreciate this type of sound, if that doesn't have that same sharp, edgy effect. I believe that a good DDC can help with lowering jitter. So, does a good power supply.

As you have alluded, I think it also is a matter of synergy with the other components, especially the speakers.

 

[jai1611]

Warm up is an issue, especially due to potential erratic power supply issues.

I solved this by using a double conversion ups. Cleans up power, creates some backup

HFZ had the Gustard R26 on the home demo list for some time. Seems to be gone now. Thats at the Pontus level. Stuff above that is usually on pre-order

 

[Yeraditya]

I have the Holo May(got one on the used market Level 2). I can compare it the to Parasound Halo P6, cambridge CXN V2, Hifiman EF400 and other dacs. Terminator Pontus as well have heard in the passing.

The difference in Holo is its incredible detail retrieval and smoothness. Usually the detail heavy DACs end up lacking smoothness but not the Holo. And it sounds fantastic in 2 to 3 mins. The difference isnt very significant to worry about turning it on etc.

Whats critical is the pairing of the AMP and cables as you could end up with overly smooth system.

I currently use it as my DAC to Cayin 300B MKii which inturn goes into susvara and I am in heaven on most days. If Holo sounds a bit dull, a few cables can sort it out - pure silver vs pure copper interconnects would help adjust for the detail etc.

DM me if you want to know more about the HOLO

 

[JaideepGiridhar]

You should also audition the Gustard R26 (if you’re willing to live with a streaming DAC). I haven’t heard it but the reviews are very favourable. It’s available for pre-order here: https://www.headphonezone.in/products/gustard-r26

 

[Kannan]

In general most want a detailed sound (that extends the full bandwidth) and is also non-fatiguing.
This somehow has become the basis to define the character between R2R and Sigma Delta in DACs and between analogue and digital chain.
Ultimately the final output is a combination of the character of various equipment, their final tonal output including even cables which are often used as tone controls.

A detailed sound cannot simultaneously be smooth as well at all times, or i will put it as non-fatiguing, primarily because of the nature of certain instruments and even voices that can excite and produce that extra sibilance or piercing character.
Some examples I can immediately think of are the violin in string instruments, cymbals, electronic drums and many vocalists who can really do very high pitch and extended singing with a piercing character.

So ultimately it will have to be a compromise of extension vs warmth (or say smoothness) in the real world.

 

[kratu]

In general most want a detailed sound (that extends the full bandwidth) and is also non-fatiguing.
This somehow has become the basis to define the character between R2R and Sigma Delta in DACs and between analogue and digital chain.
Ultimately the final output is a combination of the character of various equipment, their final tonal output including even cables which are often used as tone controls.

A detailed sound cannot simultaneously be smooth as well at all times, or i will put it as non-fatiguing, primarily because of the nature of certain instruments and even voices that can excite and produce that extra sibilance or piercing character.
Some examples I can immediately think of are the violin in string instruments, cymbals, electronic drums and many vocalists who can really do very high pitch and extended singing with a piercing character.

So ultimately it will have to be a compromise of extension vs warmth (or say smoothness) in the real world.

A detailed sound can also be smooth; and that's the way it should be. Unlike, the natural world, reproduced sound could suffer from clipping, distortion and/or sibilance. This could be due to various reasons; ranging from techniques or components used in recording or playback. When it comes to a DAC, one of the issues is the glare or artefacts from poor analogue-digital conversion.

Having said that, even without distortion, live instruments or voice can hurt ears when exposed beyond a certain sound pressure level. That is not necessarily because of distortion or harshness in the sound itself. So, I believe there is a clear distinction between distortion in reproduced sound vs fatigue caused due to listening at high volume.

A good DAC should be able to retrieve the details in the recording while not causing distortion or sibilance; or glare due to poor conversion. Unfortunately, we have to choose between some tradeoffs, depending on our constraints of budget or availability.

 

[Analogous]

A detailed sound can also be smooth; and that's the way it should be. Unlike, the natural world, reproduced sound could suffer from clipping, distortion and/or sibilance. This could be due to various reasons; ranging from techniques or components used in recording or playback. When it comes to a DAC, one of the issues is the glare or artefacts from poor analogue-digital conversion.

Having said that, even without distortion, live instruments or voice can hurt ears when exposed beyond a certain sound pressure level. That is not necessarily because of distortion or harshness in the sound itself. So, I believe there is a clear distinction between distortion in reproduced sound vs fatigue caused due to listening at high volume.

A good DAC should be able to retrieve the details in the recording while not causing distortion or sibilance; or glare due to poor conversion. Unfortunately, we have to choose between some tradeoffs, depending on our constraints of budget or availability.

Many of these (distortion, sibilance, harshness, glare and such) can also originate from amps and speakers as well?

 

[kratu]

Many of these (distortion, sibilance, harshness, glare and such) can also originate from amps and speakers as well?

Yes, they can. These are all covered in my answer under “components used in playback”. Some speakers can be quite bright and fatigue inducing. Amp and speaker mismatch can do so.

 

[pks.k]

Yes, they can.

Even the matching amp+speakers are sounding sibilance in my case..
Any remedy available sir?

 

[kratu]

Even the matching amp+speakers are sounding sibilance in my case..
Any remedy available sir?

It is better to start a new thread describing the details of the issue. (Or send a personal message to me)

 

[pks.k]

It is better to start a new thread describing the details of the issue. (Or send a personal message to me)

Sure sir. I will do.

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

A detailed sound cannot simultaneously be smooth as well

This. Anyone who says otherwise either does not understand or has a different definition of smooth.

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

I’d say detail vs smoothness (in sound reproduction) would be a L-shaped curve -as one increases, the other gets compromised. However, technology innovations (should) keep pushing the whole L curve towards the top-right.

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

My sound is very detailed. And I cover my tweeters with a blanket when I want it smooth. Only cost me 300 bucks in the end

 

[kratu]

Language has its own constraints and words could be understood based on subjective interpretation. So, words like smooth, musical, natural have their own meaning to each of us. Whatever it is, smooth for me is that highly resolving sound without any distortion or harshness. And this is definitely not soft, mushy or veiled. That is antithesis of revealing system; devoid of details or resolution. In other words, as close to the live sound as possible.

And now back to R2R DACs, please.

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

But if I were serious for once and not joking. I would say buy whatever pleases your ears. Doesn't matter if it actually sounds too warm, or too smooth or bright. And don't expect to get any agreeable endorsements from us lot when it comes to what rocks your boat . It is your money, your ears and none of our business to be judgemental.

I realised that my listening duration has dropped to a few hours a month, ever since my last dac died on me 2 years ago. The newer dac is at a whole different level when it comes to the usual Hifi attributes. On paper it is definitely the superior dac. But what's the whole bloody point if I don't enjoy it enough to want to listen to it. So it makes a great door stop and nothing else. Albeit a very expensive one at that .

Now coming back to topic, considering what you are looking for, and if DSD is not a requirement, then I would whole heartedly endorse the AMR dp-777 SE. I had the non SE model, and loved its sound. I haven't heard any dac ever since ( including many of the usual newer suspects) that enthralled me in the same way. It is a discontinued product and costed GBP 5000 when new. In srajan's 6 moons review, it came tantalising close to a 25000 GBP lampizator golden gate dac. Iam not recommending it because of srajan's review. But from my own listening experience. I recently got my vinyl rig up and running, and only then realised that the AMR was the one that came closest to getting the tone right. Iam in the hunt for one in silver, and I can only find black ones so far at around usd 4500 in the US. So I you go visiting the US or have someone coming from there, maybe you can try getting one. And they are dual voltage, so will work in India too. All the best

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

The newer dac is at a whole different level when it comes to the usual Hifi attributes. On paper it is definitely the superior dac. But what's the whole bloody point if I don't enjoy it enough to want to listen to it.

Hear. Hear.

Doesn't it feel good to realize the obvious? That perhaps the world is full of snobs, either financial or scientific. That money or measurements don't matter in the end.

Music is like everything else in life.

Chase arbitrarily defined perfection (usually by someone else) or find what satisfies you and double down on it.

I am happy for you, good luck finding the DAC you want and more importantly the sound that satiates your hunger.

 

[air870]

I just bought the Denefrips Ares 12th anniversary edition ( after missing out on a Ares II which was for sale on this site) I think its excellent, though it's my first R2R DAC. Soon, unfortunately they released the 12 - 1. But no regrets. They released a FPGA update recently. Vinshine, ( Singapore)which is the worldwide distributor ( Alvin) is very proactive in his communications and customer support. Understanding the disappointment felt by buyers of the 12th anniversary edition, he gave us a store credit towards future purchases.

 

[Hari Iyer]

I went a completely different path - a DIY route when I wanted to change my DAC. I was of the opinion that most of the sound coloration in a DAC happened after the DA conversion in the active low pass filter. The issue was not in the DAC chip, but what was after that. I replaced the active low pass with a passive audio transformer and it did the trick. This mod was done 2 years ago and I am quite happy with the outcome.

But as always this has a catch. Not applicable for all DAC chips. The audio transformer needs to mate with the DAC chip with good impedance matching. The DAC should have an I+ and I- output per channel with decent current output - somewhere around 5mA. Not a plug and play device. But if done well, then its a match made in heaven, which I doubt even most 10 times expensive setup could not match. I did this mod for my PCM1795 - BB chip.