Shure N44-7 Vs Shure M97xE

[greenhorn]

I have an M44-7. I LOVE the low end that it has. for the sort of basshead that I am, I love it, and I love the high output, because my vintage amp tends to pick up hum at high gains (that's another story)

The problem is that I hate it's highs. Too grainy and in your face with my current speakers. If the high end was a bit more dark with a bit of sparkle, that would be perfect. Is the M97xE what I'm looking for, or should I look elswhere?

 

[reubensm]

I've used the M44-7 for a long time now, its high 9.5mv output can drive any MM input and as you rightly mentioned, one can get the most out of it with lower input gain. Its low frequency response is punchy and the best among MM carts out there. The M44-7 is well known for its bass response. I've used the M97xe and it has a very fluid silky smooth non-aggressive sound which is really appealing especially when listening to classical music, jazz and instrumental performances. Personally, I love my music to be up in my face and hence, the aggressive M44-7 fit the bill perfectly. Further more, it can track almost any record without skips and jumps which makes it great for my predominantly pre-used record collection. On another note, I grew up listening to the M75-6s and I would say, its a very pleasant cart to listen to. In my opinion, its far better than the M44-7 as I found its sound to be very refined. Not so refined as the M97xe though. I used to listen to music with the bass and treble turned way up, but since of late I've started listening to music with the tone controls in flat position. I have always been surprised by the bass response from the M44-7 even with flat tone controls or even tone-defeat.

 

[souravin]

In my opinion the difference of M 44-7 and M 97Xe:

(a) M 44-7 is like GHEE (food element with love and hate relationship). This is bold and punchy

(b) M 97Xe is BUTTER. Very smooth and silky- slowly melts in mouth with a punch of salty taste.

These two cartridges carry different legacy and acquires top notch place in budget environment in different leagues. However for a quick listening or whenever I need to shake my mood after spending long hours in work, Shure M 44-7 is a best bet.

 

[jls001]

The problem is that I hate it's highs. Too grainy and in your face with my current speakers. If the high end was a bit more dark with a bit of sparkle, that would be perfect. Is the M97xE what I'm looking for, or should I look elswhere?

If it's possible, try fine tuning the tonearm balance and adjustments of null points. Correct null point alignment WILL take away some of the grit and grain in the highs, and make it smoother, besides reducing inner groove distortion.

Further, if possible to adjust with your arm, take a long hard look at the VTA setting and try refining it.

The M44-7 is unlikely to produce sparkling highs, but it shouldn't be grainy either.

Try all optimisations first. If still unsatisfied go to the next higher cartridge.

 

[haisaikat]

With M97xe unless your vinyls are well maintained and dust free be prepared to bear the surface noise as it seems to be highly sensitive to these. If your collection is mostly new releases or NM grade vinyls then this problem will not come.

 

[jls001]

Besides cartridge itself, how much the surface noise gets highlighted or controlled, also depends on tonearm and phono preamp.

 

[haisaikat]

I am using the CNC Phono (courtesy sachu and raghu), and TT is SL3200 DD, can you please recommend some improvement tips and if there is any potential challenge (like too sensitive, etc) with this setup?

 

[reubensm]

I am using the CNC Phono (courtesy sachu and raghu), and TT is SL3200 DD, can you please recommend some improvement tips and if there is any potential challenge (like too sensitive, etc) with this setup?

My setup includes the same SL3200 and I use the M44-7 on this TT. I have noticed that when I use the NAD 106 preamp as the phonostage, surface noise is the least, it is a little enhanced with the 3020. Hence a lot has to do with the phonostage as well. If surface noise can also be enhanced by criteria like stylus over-hang and stylus drag. Hence you'll need to start by ensuring that the tonearm is properly calibrated. The key aspects are the cart and stylus alignment, VTF and antiskate and height of the tonearm. Different thicker turntable mats also have a dampening effect. Hope you're SL3200 has been properly lubed. Technics DDs tend to produce rumble if this is not done.

 

[haisaikat]

My setup includes the same SL3200 and I use the M44-7 on this TT. I have noticed that when I use the NAD 106 preamp as the phonostage, surface noise is the least, it is a little enhanced with the 3020. Hence a lot has to do with the phonostage as well. If surface noise can also be enhanced by criteria like stylus over-hang and stylus drag. Hence you'll need to start by ensuring that the tonearm is properly calibrated. The key aspects are the cart and stylus alignment, VTF and antiskate and height of the tonearm. Different thicker turntable mats also have a dampening effect. Hope you're SL3200 has been properly lubed. Technics DDs tend to produce rumble if this is not done.

I have no idea Are there any recommended guidelines for lubing and frequency?

 

[jls001]

I am using the CNC Phono (courtesy sachu and raghu), and TT is SL3200 DD, can you please recommend some improvement tips and if there is any potential challenge (like too sensitive, etc) with this setup?

I honestly wouldn't know how best to control surface noises and hisses.

The M97xE with the CNC will not be oversensitive. The 4 mV output of the cartridge needs 38.2 dB of gain. I am guessing CNC will have about 40 dB of gain, which is <2 dB. This will certainly not oversaturate the CNC circuitry. I spent too little time with the CNC I built to recall what it did to surface noise

I think Rueben has given excellent advice of re-calibrating your tonearm balance, tracking force, adjustment of nulls, etc. Please try that.

 

[sachu888]

There is absolutely no problem of surface noise with CNC phono stage. Infect it is lowest than most inbuilt phono stages. There are many members using it with m97xe and have no problem of surface noise.
You may have some damaged LPs. I think cart alignment would do the trick.Please check the stylus condition.
I have tried CNC with many cart. It is dead right.

Regards
Sachin

 

[aarmath]

M97xE is the way to go mate. Been using it for about 2 years now. In excess of 200 hours of use & still going strong....

 

[haisaikat]

I honestly wouldn't know how best to control surface noises and hisses.

The M97xE with the CNC will not be oversensitive. The 4 mV output of the cartridge needs 38.2 dB of gain. I am guessing CNC will have about 40 dB of gain, which is <2 dB. This will certainly not oversaturate the CNC circuitry. I spent too little time with the CNC I built to recall what it did to surface noise

I think Rueben has given excellent advice of re-calibrating your tonearm balance, tracking force, adjustment of nulls, etc. Please try that.

Okay will spend some time on that definitely. Actually if I play NM or M records those play absolutely fine, but problem is when I try to play some which is in VG+ condition or even records that have not been dusted over a period of time and has gathered static

 

[haisaikat]

There is absolutely no problem of surface noise with CNC phono stage. Infect it is lowest than most inbuilt phono stages. There are many members using it with m97xe and have no problem of surface noise.
You may have some damaged LPs. I think cart alignment would do the trick.Please check the stylus condition.
I have tried CNC with many cart. It is dead right.

Regards
Sachin

I never said it was a CNC problem I love the CNC. But wanted to eliminate some areas that can introduce surface noise. Reuben I believe had pointed phono stage being a possible area which you have eliminated.

 

[reubensm]

I never said it was a CNC problem I love the CNC. But wanted to eliminate some areas that can introduce surface noise. Reuben I believe had pointed phono stage being a possible area which you have eliminated.

I have built my version of the CNC which I am yet to test so can't comment on the CNC's performance. But the NAD 106's phonostage is one of the best ever from NAD (evolved from the legendary NAD 1000). It sounds really good with older records. There is a a greater degree of filtering and softening of noise when compared to other phonostages that I have used including those of the 3020, 1020A and Grundig V5000. It does not throw all the ticks, pops and wooshes up in front of the listener. I heard the a version of the CNC (I think it was) at Mr. Kuruvila's place but I thought his NAD PP-1 and his Yaqin (MS 12 I think it was), sounded better to me. Again this is only a subjective assessment and there are lots of dependencies that are not factored. The CNC without a doubt is a brilliant design and offers quality performance at a moderate price point.

 

[jls001]

Slight OT: while we are discussing M97xE and CNC, try 62 kOhms impedance loading on your CNC instead of the regular 47 kOhms. You may like what you hear. The thumb rule is higher loading accentuates the highs (and vice versa).

Another "mod" is to try the dual LME 49990 opamp instead of the stock OPA 2134. My personal preference is for the OPA 2134 but lots of others here on the forum who have tried the CNC prefer the sound of the LME49990.

 

[jls001]

Quoting from this page:

Quote:
Excess surface noise can be the result of a MM cartridge loaded with too much capacitance. This capacitance interacts with the cart. inductance resulting in a high frequency resonance (see Jim Hagerman's web site). Ultra-sonic noise can excite this resonance and be shifted down in frequency into the audible range. Think of ringing a bell. It's struck with an impulse with a lot of high frequency components, but it rings at it's resonance freq. If you can adjust the capacitance loading, try lowering it. I once had a Clearaudio Arum Beta Wood MM cart. and when I loaded it at the manufactures recommended loading I heard excessive surface noise. When I set my phono stage input to 0 capacitance loading (leaving about 100pF for the cables) the surface noise was much reduced.
Unquote

 

[sachu888]

I have built my version of the CNC which I am yet to test so can't comment on the CNC's performance. But the NAD 106's phonostage is one of the best ever from NAD (evolved from the legendary NAD 1000). It sounds really good with older records. There is a a greater degree of filtering and softening of noise when compared to other phonostages that I have used including those of the 3020, 1020A and Grundig V5000. It does not throw all the ticks, pops and wooshes up in front of the listener. I heard the a version of the CNC (I think it was) at Mr. Kuruvila's place but I thought his NAD PP-1 and his Yaqin (MS 12 I think it was), sounded better to me. Again this is only a subjective assessment and there are lots of dependencies that are not factored. The CNC without a doubt is a brilliant design and offers quality performance at a moderate price point.

I have posted this in another thread that Mr Kuruvilla is having HTMCPS(excellent) for MC only.He is using it with his own power supply.Power supply plays important part in phonostage design.
He does not have a CNC phonostage.

Regards,
Sachin

 

[sachu888]

Quoting from this page:

Quote:
Excess surface noise can be the result of a MM cartridge loaded with too much capacitance. This capacitance interacts with the cart. inductance resulting in a high frequency resonance (see Jim Hagerman's web site). Ultra-sonic noise can excite this resonance and be shifted down in frequency into the audible range. Think of ringing a bell. It's struck with an impulse with a lot of high frequency components, but it rings at it's resonance freq. If you can adjust the capacitance loading, try lowering it. I once had a Clearaudio Arum Beta Wood MM cart. and when I loaded it at the manufactures recommended loading I heard excessive surface noise. When I set my phono stage input to 0 capacitance loading (leaving about 100pF for the cables) the surface noise was much reduced.
Unquote

+1 Completely agree wth above.This is the reason I use Video component cables for TT.They are very hard to work with,but provide excellent shielding and of very low capacitance.
Edit: Shure recommends 200-300pF of total capacitive loading for M97xe.

Regards,
Sachin

 

[reubensm]

Power supply plays important part in phonostage design

yes, I could hear ripple accompanying the music