Speaker cables - Bare copper vs. tinned copper

[kartick]

Kartick, what is your system? Does your system give you a lot of texture? Is there anything you think is lacking? Are you happy with the tone? What music do you listen to? What cables are you using now?

Prem, my system details are in my signature. It is a pretty elaborate signature for all it's worth. Anyway, on my primary system with horns and all tubes, I get very good textures, it is really open. In the entire chain, if I use thickly shielded wires (speaker cables, ICs, ..), it seems to constrict the sound and take away from the openness. The shielded cables may bring in heft but makes it a bit claustrophobic for my liking. I have always found myself going back to Lyrita single core and Mr. Murthy's cables - both ICs and Speaker cables. With the tubes, I find Mr. Murthy's ICs best placed between all amps except on the phono so I use these interchangeably. For a long time I was using Lyrita's 14awg enamled single core copper speaker wires, then I shifted to Murthy's and it seemed to bring in a bit more focus and sensation of deeper lows. However, post I upgraded the XO to Sonicaps and Erse's flatfoil inductors, the mid bass heft and textures have become so rich that I went back to the Lyrita speaker cables. Lyrita speaker cables have more articulate and natural sounding low and free flowing mids with non-fatiguing highs. I am happy with this sound mostly. Now the other trick is that I listen to a wide variety of music, almost bipolar that ways, ranging anywhere from Indian classical, ghazals, blues, electronic, ambient, jazz. Basically all over the place. So while I am absolutely satisfied with the cables for now, I won't mind increasing the bass control on this system a tad bit.

On my second system though, I have recently changed my speakers from Fostex to Monitor Audio Platinum 200. This is a different animal altogether and here Mr. Murthy's speaker cables seem to give the MA speakers a nice balance. This system will eventually also have a high current solid state amplifier coming in. Here my aim is to slightly make the sound a bit more open, airy and easy going. I have been with tubes as my main systems for a decade so making this change is a quite dramatic for me. I am enjoying this flavour as well, but with breakin and better suited speaker cables, perhaps the overall sound could become slightly more suited for longer listening sessions. The overall SPL becomes a bit too much as the room is also small for the size of these speakers.

Recently I loaned the Furutech speaker cables which are quite expensive (at least for me) and in both my systems, I did not find it to pair well. The detail retrieval was quite good but overall the sound was fatiguing and it was not something that could let me listen to music for long. It had Furutech's Rhodium spade and banana connectors.

So overall, I am intrigued to try out some good speaker cables without breaking the bank, which is why the Auvio and EuroCable options got me interested.

 

[prem]

Kartick, try tinned copper. First try Belden 8402 ic. Do speaker cables later. Use Switchcraft gold plated 3502 rca connectors. You should get them on eBay. You can try this ic on both your systems.

Copper speaker cables are unlikely to work with Lyrita. Stick to Lyrita cables. You can try WE 16 awg speaker cable with Lyrita system. Duelund 16 awg or 12 awg will give you more details but you’ll lose some of the WE 16 awg magic. If you are willing to experiment a bit more you can also try Black Cat Coppertone cables

Auvio is more suited for full range, neutral kind of systems. For example I wouldn’t use Auvio with Rethm.

 

[jls001]

I am going to try Euroclear 12 AWG.

Italian made.

Their balanced ICs (I have tried two different models) are also very good sounding.

But I'm still on tinned copper trip .

In my system the bass with Belden 8477 goes lower than anything I have tried. And the highs are sparkly without fatiguing. I first bought 8471 (16 AWG) as I was curious to try it out, but 8477 is an upgrade over 8471 (denser sound, rest being mostly same). At least in my system the Belden 8477 sounds more to my taste than the (unobtainium) Radio Shack Auvio 12 gauge. Or the WE16 or Duelund 16 TCs.

Those who prefer copper should also try out the Klotz 2.5 sqmm or 1.5 sqmm speaker cables (LY215S and LY225S, IIRC). They're very good too. Available from Kiran Sales for cheap.

 

[Sean de Silva]

Those who prefer copper should also try out the Klotz 2.5 sqmm or 1.5 sqmm speaker cables (LY215S and LY225S, IIRC). They're very good too. Available from Kiran Sales for cheap.

+1 for the Klotz LY225 from Kiran sales. I've been using this since quite some time now and love the change it has brought to my system. Kiran sales also sells the Italian Eurocable.

 

[Fiftyfifty]

Belden 8477, Eurocable, Klotz are all available in the range of Rs. 200 per metre. There's nothing like trying them all, if only to understand the characteristics of each. Auvio will be very hard to get hold of, but we can keep looking.

 

[kartick]

Kartick, try tinned copper. First try Belden 8402 ic. Do speaker cables later. Use Switchcraft gold plated 3502 rca connectors. You should get them on eBay. You can try this ic on both your systems.

Copper speaker cables are unlikely to work with Lyrita. Stick to Lyrita cables. You can try WE 16 awg speaker cable with Lyrita system. Duelund 16 awg or 12 awg will give you more details but you’ll lose some of the WE 16 awg magic. If you are willing to experiment a bit more you can also try Black Cat Coppertone cables

Auvio is more suited for full range, neutral kind of systems. For example I wouldn’t use Auvio with Rethm.

Sure, I can try the 8402 ICs since many of you are using it. Not too sure how the pairing will be with Lyrita. Anyhow, do you recommend using the 8402 between pre and power or from the sources to pre? I have seen that the effectiveness changes (increases the most) when I change cables between my dac and pre.
I was interested in the Deulund cables before Covid struck and then later just dint go for it, don’t know why. Well, for now the crossover upgrade has been making me enjoy the sytem like never before so perhaps, the speaker cable has taken a back seat. Then this thread got me excited again with the local options available.

Secondly, how would the Eurocable or the 8477 sound with my MA setup. That speaker is open and attacking (not harsh) and could benefit in attaining more body from the suggested use of copper wires.

Would you guys say that the 8477/Euro has well controlled and tight bass? That’s what I am looking for. In my smaller room where the MA are placed, I am getting a lot of room reinforcement on the lows so I definitely don’t want more bass quantity but just want a cable which has articulated, well controlled and taught bass.

 

[prem]

Use 8402 source to pre and pre to power. It makes sense to use same brand ic for both. I normally like to stick to same brand ic and speaker cable too. I find it works better. I mix and match only if it’s a proven combination like Belden 8402 and WE 16.

On your Monitor Audio try copper speaker cable. But if you are getting room reinforcement bass, then I do not know what cable will work. I completely try and avoid room reinforcement bass when setting up my system. If your objective is to only tighten the bass, use a slightly thinner gauge cable. It should do the trick.

 

[Fiftyfifty]

Just thinking out loud - If one intends to introduce cable induced coloration to the music (and that can surely be a perfectly valid pursuit) then all bets are off.
But for someone who wants the output from the amp to reach the speakers with minimal change (i.e. a basic purist mindset) , would it not be a better idea to simply use the material with the best electrical characteristics for the job at hand?
While technically it would be a massive fat silver strand cable; Realistically would that not be a reasonably thick stranded copper cable?

Coming to think of it, quantum physicists do not go around auditioning cables for their measurement equipment - they simply go with the best engineering design choice
Had that not been the case, perhaps a different brand of wire chosen at CERN could have resulted in the discovery of a Biggs Hoson particle instead of the Higgs Boson!
(or maybe Hog’s Bison? )

I pretty much agree, except that your room, your ears, your sliding windows, your carpet, are all 'reality'. Spiritual seekers, quantum physicists and audio enthusiasts are eternally in search of the elusive absolute reality

Sure, I can try the 8402 ICs since many of you are using it. Not too sure how the pairing will be with Lyrita. Anyhow, do you recommend using the 8402 between pre and power or from the sources to pre? I have seen that the effectiveness changes (increases the most) when I change cables between my dac and pre.
I was interested in the Deulund cables before Covid struck and then later just dint go for it, don’t know why. Well, for now the crossover upgrade has been making me enjoy the sytem like never before so perhaps, the speaker cable has taken a back seat. Then this thread got me excited again with the local options available.

Secondly, how would the Eurocable or the 8477 sound with my MA setup. That speaker is open and attacking (not harsh) and could benefit in attaining more body from the suggested use of copper wires.

Would you guys say that the 8477/Euro has well controlled and tight bass? That’s what I am looking for. In my smaller room where the MA are placed, I am getting a lot of room reinforcement on the lows so I definitely don’t want more bass quantity but just want a cable which has articulated, well controlled and taught bass.

@kartick, Belden 8477 is tinned copper while Eurocable is bare copper. Both are 12 AWG.
For ICs, many FM's are extremely happy with cables custom built by fm @jls001. I'm not sure but I think he does speaker cables too.

These cables are so cheap (and without compromise on sound quality) that you can also try placing your system some place other than in between speakers, which would normally be difficult to do because of high speaker cable cost.

But the majority recommendation is 'Long IC, short speaker cable'

 

[Gerry_the_Merry]

But the majority recommendation is 'Long IC, short speaker cable'

Sure.

But read Jim Smith on system being on the side, not between speakers.

Read one of the threads in this forum which I think was a video of the head of PS Audio explaining why the system should ideally not be in between the speakers. Once you move the system to the side, you will need much longer cables. The extra length will be a dilution, but the absence of electronics in between the speakers will more than compensate, the explanation goes. I have not tried it myself, though I can if I want to.

I don't know about long IC. Haven't heard this before. Generally 1m has been sufficient for me, whatever the need.

 

[Fiftyfifty]

Sure.

But read Jim Smith on system being on the side, not between speakers.

Read one of the threads in this forum which I think was a video of the head of PS Audio explaining why the system should ideally not be in between the speakers. Once you move the system to the side, you will need much longer cables. The extra length will be a dilution, but the absence of electronics in between the speakers will more than compensate, the explanation goes. I have not tried it myself, though I can if I want to.

I don't know about long IC. Haven't heard this before. Generally 1m has been sufficient for me, whatever the need.

You'll find all the arguments here

Argument against placement of HIFI rack / equipment / TV between the speakers

Came across this video the other day: I had never considered placing my equipment anywhere other than between the speakers. Now this video is making me 'less satisfied' with my set up :) and my crab mentality is making me post this on the forum for the 'benefit' ;) of fellow members.

www.hifivision.com

 

[Gerry_the_Merry]

You'll find all the arguments here

Argument against placement of HIFI rack / equipment / TV between the speakers

Came across this video the other day: I had never considered placing my equipment anywhere other than between the speakers. Now this video is making me 'less satisfied' with my set up :) and my crab mentality is making me post this on the forum for the 'benefit' ;) of fellow members.

www.hifivision.com

Thanks. Very interesting, and some new insights. I think you have posted in response to my comments on long IC vs short IC.

I have my CDP connected with XLR (VDH Second) and RCA (Radio Shack with Neutrix Rean). The sound is 100% identical. My kids have much sharper hearing than me, and they detect a marginal pull forward of images with the XLR, perhaps due to tighter definition. To my ears there is no diff. If anyone were to visit me, I would prove this easily. In a blind test, it will be near impossible to distinguish.

 

[prem]

Much before speaker wire, the internal wires of the source and the amp see the signal and they could very well mess it up

 

[Fiftyfifty]

I think it will be nice and useful to limit this discussion to:
1. Material of the cable
2. Guage of the cable
3. Twists and other construction characteristics of the cable
All 3 above with respect to the effect they have on the sq in general and for our individual systems and ears.
For instance, I'd like to know how capacitance affects sq. Will a low capacitance cable like the Eurocable impact the sound and how?
We all have a lot to learn on this subject from more experienced FM's.

Cheers!

 

[Kannan]

I think it will be nice and useful to limit this discussion to:
1. Material of the cable
2. Guage of the cable
3. Twists and other construction characteristics of the cable
All 3 above with respect to the effect they have on the sq in general and for our individual systems and ears.
For instance, I'd like to know how capacitance affects sq. Will a low capacitance cable like the Eurocable impact the sound and how?
We all have a lot to learn on this subject from more experienced FM's.

Cheers!

now that is a serious note.

I am presently using the 8477 for speakers and the LC1 for low level, 1694A for coaxial.
12awg minimum for speaker cables irrespective of length
low capacitance for low level cables with reasonably good isolation and with good connectors. Pure silver or silver quoted cables have not worked for me as i find the lows impacted and the highs have a strange bloom.
After burn-in tinned copper is as good as any copper cable. If living in coastal or humid areas stick to tinned copper.
Too less or too much insulation can be a deterrent to the overall sound.

Ultimately system synergy matters and the setup should be resolving enough to decipher the changes to the ears.

 

[keith_correa]

I think it will be nice and useful to limit this discussion to:
1. Material of the cable
2. Guage of the cable
3. Twists and other construction characteristics of the cable
All 3 above with respect to the effect they have on the sq in general and for our individual systems and ears.
For instance, I'd like to know how capacitance affects sq. Will a low capacitance cable like the Eurocable impact the sound and how?
We all have a lot to learn on this subject from more experienced FM's.

Cheers!

I suggest that we all read this and this [make sure you read the comments after the articles too] by Galen Gaeris [ex product development engineer] of Belden fame and who was behind Belden's Iconoclast cables.

Also this and this [drill down into the links under the "See also:" section] for different perspectives!

which oodiophile cables are you using, coat hangers included

1. DIY Finolex electrical cable in a Milloit braid.
2. DIY star quad from el-cheapo Radio Shack speaker wire.

 

[raghupb]

<snip>
1. DIY Finolex electrical cable in a Milloit braid.
<snip>

This is an idea I can try at home. Thanks.
Cheers,
Raghu

 

[Hari Iyer]

No. There are many fine strands which make one set. Like these there are seven sets which are interwoven. I don’t know if the individual thin strands in each set is also interwoven

Are they Litz wire?

 

[prem]

Hari, I don’t know. Could be

 

[arj]

I think it will be nice and useful to limit this discussion to:
1. Material of the cable
2. Guage of the cable
3. Twists and other construction characteristics of the cable
All 3 above with respect to the effect they have on the sq in general and for our individual systems and ears.
For instance, I'd like to know how capacitance affects sq. Will a low capacitance cable like the Eurocable impact the sound and how?
We all have a lot to learn on this subject from more experienced FM's.

Cheers!

From what I have understood, with Speaker wire, inductance is more important to give the feeling of "Speed" and transparency. especially as it impacts high frequencies ..very often at the expense of capacitance which of course can be high

The braided cables suggested above also reduce inductance and increase capacitance and more the braids, lesser the inductance. I believe as the gauge increases the capacitance increases and inductance goes down

a very nice post by Jon Risch on AA Here which have related and unrelated info but a good read none the less !

 

[jls001]

Are they Litz wire?

No, it's not Litz.