Why some Speakers prefer SS and others Tube..

[arj]

Found this article and thought i'd share
Atma-Sphere music systems, inc.

to quote

The Tubes vs transistors debate also arises from the conflict of the two paradigms. Transistor amplifier designs operate almost entirely in the Voltage Paradigm whereas most tube designs are Power Paradigm technology. This appears to be the the main distinction that separates the Voltage Paradigm from Power Paradigm amplifier designers but the use of negative feedback is obviously another.

ie some speakers prefer a constant voltage irrespective of the impedance and others are designed so that the POwer (ie voltage can vary but needs that min power)
apparently tubes by default are constant power while Most SS are constant voltage.

 

[jls001]

This is telling:

The Objectivist/Subjectivist debate has been raging in audiophile circles for nearly three decades. Objectivists operate exclusively in the Voltage Paradigm while Subjectivists tend to operate in the Power Paradigm.

All the raging debates we embroil ourselves in? Probably we are not even talking about the same thing!

Good article.

 

[arj]

To be honest, thats one sentence i did not really understand.
Does this mean that subjectivists have a tendency to choose speakers/Amps which are constant power ?
There may be some truth here, but perhaps not definitive, as these are the folks who usually use Pure Class A/SETs and hence the ideally matched speakers (High Sensitive/Horns etc)

But again there are folks who do go for powerful SS with multi-driver speakers who are also driven by the ear rather than measurement.

 

[jls001]

To be honest, thats one sentence i did not really understand.

Voltage-centric design has its own set of metrics - power at 8 Ohms, 4 Ohms, 2 Ohms (in a good design power should double with the halving of impedance), bandwidth at -3 dB point, amount of distortion, etc.

Power-centric design follows a constant output power irrespective of load impedance, and doesn't achieve distortion values of a hundredth or even a thousandth part of a percentage.

The priorities are different in the two paradigms. So if a voltage-centric designer boasts of 0.002% distortion at some power output level at some specific frequency, this fancy number doesn't mean a whole lot to the power-centric guys for whom distortion values of 2% or even 5% are no deal breakers.

 

[pratimbayal]

To me - there is no particular reason. For my case , The Turnberry recommends a power from 30 to 180 watts per channel. But this sounds well with 38 watt Line Magnetic tube amp compared to 175 watt SS amp, though my SS amp ( kismet ) is a better amp than the tube amp. With any other speaker , (at least what I have seen ) kismet sounds far better.

 

[arj]

To me - there is no particular reason. For my case , The Turnberry recommends a power from 30 to 180 watts per channel. But this sounds well with 38 watt Line Magnetic tube amp compared to 175 watt SS amp, though my SS amp ( kismet ) is a better amp than the tube amp. With any other speaker , (at least what I have seen ) kismet sounds far better.

Speaker manufacturers are very conservative when they come to recommended power since room size, placement distance and amp quality vary. To give an example you lose 3 DB with every 1 m increase in seating distance and to get the same SPL in the new location ie increase the output by 3 DB you need to double the power.
So if you needed only 15 w in your earlier location, you need 30 w in the new location.

 

[Shivam]

I don't understand the electronics but to my ears at realistic volumes, there is no difference in sound from SS and tube amps if everything else is kept same.

Like most audiophiles would say- maybe the system is not revealing enough!

 

[Dr.Bass]

To me - there is no particular reason. For my case , The Turnberry recommends a power from 30 to 180 watts per channel. But this sounds well with 38 watt Line Magnetic tube amp compared to 175 watt SS amp, though my SS amp ( kismet ) is a better amp than the tube amp. With any other speaker , (at least what I have seen ) kismet sounds far better.

Pratim, the Tannoy recommendation is based on traditional push-pull solid state amps with negative feedback. This covers more than 90% of amplification in the world. In that regard they are spot on. 30 watts is the starting point really. The 50 watts Naim struggles after a certain stage. Those Tannoys can really push some serious air in a big room with some 200 watts monoblocks, creating a very live stage and keeping intact all the Tannoy values of musicality, but their buyers are a docile bunch normally

 

[koushik]

To give an example you lose 3 DB with every 1 m increase in seating distance..

That's not true ... it can't be linear like 3 dB every 1m ...

The formula that governs this phenomenon is given by-
P2 = (R1/R2) * P1
Where P = Sound pressure
R = Distance from the source.

Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[pratimbayal]

Dr. Bass

I agree with you. In fact for last couple of weeks I was thinking in the same line. kismet + Turnberry could have been a killer combo in a BIGGER room ( mine is 12.8'/15.5'/10') . I remember one audition with kismet + canton speaker ( the one that Asit has with 92 db sensitivity) -it was an unforgettable experience , excellent sound. That place was an open drawing cum dinning room ( as you also know ) with bigger space than mine. Room size matters for amp+speaker combo.

Regards

 

[arj]

That's not true ... it can't be linear like 3 dB every 1m ...

The formula that governs this phenomenon is given by-
P2 = (R1/R2) * P1
Where P = Sound pressure
R = Distance from the source.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Koushik, no clue on the theory, it is approximate and a thumb rule beyond 2 m
But i could be wrong..it is logarithmic and not linear

 

[jls001]

That's not true ... it can't be linear like 3 dB every 1m ...

The formula that governs this phenomenon is given by-
P2 = (R1/R2) * P1
Where P = Sound pressure
R = Distance from the source.

Correct me if I am wrong.

I am not sure about the veracity of the above formula, but my understanding is the sound level drops by 6 dB with doubling of distance. So for example if a speaker is rated at 91 dB loudness at 1 meter distance when fed 1 Watt of power, the loudness should be (91-6) dB = 85 dB at 2 meter distance for the same input power.

See this page for an explanation of the above. To be confused even more, do read this page :lol:

 

[murali]

A good read.

TA Audio Topics - EE Times Interview with John Murphy on Tubes vs. Solid-State

murali

 

[Dr.Bass]

Recently I heard a system in which the amp was a top quality 300B SET doing about 10 watts per channel. The speaker being driven was really interesting, it was from a brand called WHT (Wide Horn Technology), Australia. The model was IQM. It was not a horn speaker, it was rather a typical multi driver full range speaker doing about 25hz-50khz but the speciality of this speaker is, it is crossover less!! All the drivers are designed in house to have a natural mechanical roll off so as to prevent the use of a any cross over. Only a small capacitor is used to protect the tweeter, thats about it. All drivers are designed to be high efficiency so the combined efficiency of the speaker was 97db. Nominal impedance was 10 ohms and it was so designed that it never dropped below 8 ohms:licklips:. I have never heard a more "complete" dynamics from a music system. The star of the system was the amp but then it took a speaker with these kind of design parameters for the amp to really convey the complete picture. Musically this was state of the art!

 

[arj]

the Reference 3a speakers also follow the same philosophy and the mm de capo is a star among stand mounts for the same.
This crossover less design is a concept which was first implemented by a french firm ( i believe) which was then bought by divergent tech who own the reference 3A brand now based out of Canada.

BTW If they sell to a place they dont have a distributor they absorb the transportation cost

lots of excellent reviews on the net on them

 

[Dr.Bass]

Yes Arj, I have read about reference 3a before. In fact before buying ATC I was seriously considering ref 3a but I could not get any demo. What is interesting about WHT speakers is their resolution and PRAT. Both were reference class all the way. Couple that with its high sensitivity and it can do pink floyd to Mahler full range with less than 10 watts, without the compromise on resolution and extension which some times accompanies SET friendly speakers. Good stuff really !!! When you hear such gears you instantly realise that it was designed by someone passionate about real music and for the purpose of making better music at homes, not the typical AV expo stuff.

 

[jls001]

This Audience speakers do not use crossovers: Audience ClairAudient Loudspeakers

Sound is very coherent. All the drivers are full rangers.

 

[mpw]

arj / dr bass

any Ref 3A DE Capo owners on this forum or somewhere possible in India to have a listen ?

Before i got my current speakers, the Ref 3A MM De Capo was ( and is ?? ) on my lust list

There is a pair on agon on sale as well..

arj - do they really absorb the transportation cost to a distributorless area ??

regards

 

[arj]

arj / dr bass

any Ref 3A DE Capo owners on this forum or somewhere possible in India to have a listen ?

Before i got my current speakers, the Ref 3A MM De Capo was ( and is ?? ) on my lust list

There is a pair on agon on sale as well..

arj - do they really absorb the transportation cost to a distributorless area ??

regards

i had asked them this around 10 years back and they had mentioned that but i had moved to paris for a couple of years hence went with the JM Reynauds which was local.

due to some reason did not consider them when i was deciding between the Merlin, Green mountain Audio and Harbeths...i think i plain forgot

 

[sidvee]

https://www.analogaudiolabs.com/
These are the Indian distributors for Reference 3A. The owner Byju, is a very friendly person.
Cheers,
Sid