BS vs FS

^ Nice crisp explanation Flash.

Coming to monitors, like Manoj mentioned, it is a monitor if it is purpose built for studio, sound engineering etc. Many audiophiles who are in pursuit of transparency, accuracy have monitors in their listening room. IMO size of the speaker does not matter for a speaker to be called a monitor, it is the purpose. Examples of large monitors include B&W Matrix 80x, Altec 604s & 605s, ATC SCM 50,100, several JBLs and many more.


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There is no harm in using a Studio Monitor at home for listening to music. However it may not be pleasant to the ears as the sound would be flat (uncolored). Pls note uncolored sound is not always pleasant to ears. Many times it is harsh. Mostly the Studio monitors frequency would be towards HF and Hi-mid and less LF to get the nuances of every instrument distinctly.

Normally in recording monitors are used for mixing (mixing is the process by which frequency of each instrument track and voice track is tweaked and some effects are added to get the best output) . If the music sounds good in Studio monitor ideally it should sound good in all types of systems (Car stereo, small Hi-Fi, Home theatre etc). Poorly mixed audio might sound good in few audio system and might sound bad in other systems.

I use Yamaha MSP5 monitor (Active speaker) for home studio recording. However I use a different system for listening to music (Yamaha AS500 + WF 10.2). I have tried using Yam AS500+WF 10.2 for recording. The challenge I faced was that what sounds good in my setup does not sound good in other systems (which is the very purpose of Studio monitor).

The point that I want to make it clear is that Studio Monitors are meant for critical listening especially for mixing the music post recording. If you use Studio monitors for listening to music at home you might get disappointed with the harsh sound. Little coloration (tweaked freq) is required for pleasant hearing experience which is what you get in any BS or FS speakers though the degree of coloration differs from speaker to speaker.
 
There is no harm in using a Studio Monitor at home for listening to music. However it may not be pleasant to the ears as the sound would be flat (uncolored). Pls note uncolored sound is not always pleasant to ears. Many times it is harsh. Mostly the Studio monitors frequency would be towards HF and Hi-mid and less LF to get the nuances of every instrument distinctly.

The point that I want to make it clear is that Studio Monitors are meant for critical listening especially for mixing the music post recording. If you use Studio monitors for listening to music at home you might get disappointed with the harsh sound. Little coloration (tweaked freq) is required for pleasant hearing experience which is what you get in any BS or FS speakers though the degree of coloration differs from speaker to speaker.

Its quite disappointing that studio engineers like you write things like this. A studio is meant to be a proper acoustical enviornment and a loudspeaker monitor is meant to be a proper reproducer of whatever you feed to it. So if you build your studio properly and setup good loudspeaker monitors properly and do a proper job of recording and mixing, its supposed to sound great on a loudspeaker monitor system and ofcourse on all good hifi loudspeakers. Its often the case where studio engineers work in shoddy make-do acoustical enviornments, buy the cheapest equipment and do shoddy work and hope that badly designed and manufactured hifi speakers mask all the defects in the recording. Like denom says below

If Latas screeches at a certain frequency, if Ashas tears at another frequency, if Ilaiyaraaja squeaks at some other frequency and Zakirs bayan booms at a certain frequency, all these have to be adjusted in the recording and mixing process and not in the speaker design. Imagine if speaker designers started knocking out the unpleasantness of every famous voice and instrument, what would be left to reproduce? Aim of every normal speaker designer is to get his speaker performance as close to a reference monitor as his price can afford. The ones that dont manage this, conjure up all kind of weird explanations to make it look intentional to the buyer.

I am a humble noob but wonder why everyone is so fixated with what a "monitor" is.

All i want to know is how to choose between an FS vs bookshelf speaker set.

Sorry Vishal, while we are replying to you, we are also trying to clear others misconceptions. If people continue to have misconceptions about loudspeaker monitors, they will not be able to set them up and use them properly to record and mix properly for you to playback well made music on the nice speakers you may eventually choose to buy with your hard earned money and also not waste all these efforts you have spent to learn and find out whats good to buy

If I were to put down my opinion on the original discussion, very few high end Floorstanders are properly designed, and are mainly intended for large rooms and not for small and medium rooms. You cannot put them against a back wall (wall behind the speakers) as the bass will boom (because floor standers have no bass adjustments for this half space condition), and if you mount them away from the back wall, you get back-wall bass cancellations (unless you put them 3 to 4 meters away from the back wall behind the speakers, which is hard to do in small or medium rooms). Either way, you are screwed.

I would say the bookshelf is by far the better solution and can be complemented nicely with a subwoofer crossed over at around 80Hz. This way you can put the main speakers against the back wall and not get too much of a bass boom (which can also be adjusted if possible) or the bookshelves can be placed about 1.2 meters or more away from the back wall (if the subwoofer is crossed over at around 80Hz) completely avoiding any back wall cancellations. This works well in most rooms of any size. The subwoofer can be optimally placed against the back wall (wall behind the speakers) and adjusted for optimum performance. Easy to successfully implement this kind of system in almost any sort of room.
 
flat frequency response does not mean it will cause ear fatigue. where did you get that? Its usually the non flat speakers (depending upon the non linearity) that cause ear fatigue. A flat FR speaker cant be lousy, but a non flat one can be:)

If there are high and low Q points in the frequency domain then you experience hearing fatigue. Also the harmonics needs to be balanced across the entire FR curve. Usually home x-overs are applied to the normal frequency domain curve to have the harmonics balanced. I personally believe that having a flat frequency response speaker can cause hearing fatigue at high frequency and should be toned down @ -6dB/octave after the upper mid-range to have a well balanced tonal response to hear them for long time without hearing fatigue. Infact i apply this logic to my designs based on other parameters too.
 
Audioman - no worries from my side. I don't own the thread and noobs like me are prolly keenly reading all the debates n soaking up the knowledge.

However I feel that somewhere the action shifted from the living room (home) where it was intended to be to the studio (pro setup) and a lot of good advice shared was applicable to a studio set up.
 
If there are high and low Q points in the frequency domain then you experience hearing fatigue. Also the harmonics needs to be balanced across the entire FR curve. Usually home x-overs are applied to the normal frequency domain curve to have the harmonics balanced. I personally believe that having a flat frequency response speaker can cause hearing fatigue at high frequency and should be toned down @ -6dB/octave after the upper mid-range to have a well balanced tonal response to hear them for long time without hearing fatigue. Infact i apply this logic to my designs based on other parameters too.

Hari,

This is where the AVR/Audio processor comes into picture. I agree all flat does not sound right to many people and some tend to call the system too bright. An AVR can correct this very easily and lets people tweak their system to their liking. Almost all the avr's have bass/treble control which can change the HF/LF by few db's. Also they come with Cinema EQ or THX modes which do similar things. Many people I know do these things. I like my bass more, so I do up it by few dbs. Our hearing in low frequency is not that great so couple dbs more in bass actually sounds more natural. Now, the stereo guys who may not have these tweaks on their amps so they have to go with speaker which are colored. Or get an amp which offers at least some eq and/or bass treble controls.

Anyway, the point is - its better to start with flat and then tweak the sound the way we prefer it.


As for BS vs FS, I like the BS more - because of the placement and use of subwoofers. I know the purists don't like it. But its a deadly combination.
 
Hari,

This is where the AVR/Audio processor comes into picture. I agree all flat does not sound right to many people and some tend to call the system too bright. An AVR can correct this very easily and lets people tweak their system to their liking. Almost all the avr's have bass/treble control which can change the HF/LF by few db's. Also they come with Cinema EQ or THX modes which do similar things. Many people I know do these things. I like my bass more, so I do up it by few dbs. Our hearing in low frequency is not that great so couple dbs more in bass actually sounds more natural. Now, the stereo guys who may not have these tweaks on their amps so they have to go with speaker which are colored. Or get an amp which offers at least some eq and/or bass treble controls.

Anyway, the point is - its better to start with flat and then tweak the sound the way we prefer it.


As for BS vs FS, I like the BS more - because of the placement and use of subwoofers. I know the purists don't like it. But its a deadly combination.

I am referring to flat tone control or direct mode in the AVR with reference to the speakers response. Home cross-over curves if applied to speakers too to some extend will allow harmonic balance to a great extend and will allow smooth mellow response at the high frequency. Also the mid-bass gets masked due to the high-frequency and we can achieve octave-to-octave balance by using this simple technique.
 
I am referring to flat tone control or direct mode in the AVR with reference to the speakers response. Home cross-over curves if applied to speakers too to some extend will allow harmonic balance to a great extend and will allow smooth mellow response at the high frequency. Also the mid-bass gets masked due to the high-frequency and we can achieve octave-to-octave balance by using this simple technique.

Yes, agree. It ultimately boils down to implementation of the roll offs. If one is designing the crossovers, then we can implement the way we like it and have better control. But then again, not all the speaker designers think same. some implement things nicely and many don't. That's why we see all the colored implementations and crossover designs. If the user like a particular way of implementation, that's the way to go for it.

Also agree with your comment about mid-bass getting overshadowed by high frequencies. More so if the room is causing some peaks and dips with mid-bass response. That's what makes some people think the system is too bright. Best way is to have properly designed crossover and then good implementation of house curve, either through AVR or a crossover.

On another note - One of my friend here called me to hear the new speakers he has got. I had liked his existing speakers a lot. They were very nice, quite detailed, good bass bookshelf speakers. He has new bookshelf speakers. Both were not hooked to any subwoofers, so producing full range. Here is how it went.
* He first played a track through the old speakers. As usual, nice, detailed, good bass. Good sound.
* We quickly changed the speakers. Put the new speakers at exact same location. Heard the same track. Sounded little bright. The singers voice sounded bit raspy. some could have called it not right. That's how I felt too.
* Now, we changed back to the old speaker. I was hoping that I would like them now. But nope, it now sounded not as detailed. Turns out, we both like the detailed sound of the new speaker. The singers voice is actually raspy and it did sounded now natural.

we went back and forth between the two speakers and different tracks. Every time, I like the new speaker which sounded more natural, detailed. The first one had more bass but the lack of detail was now bothering me. The friend ended up keeping the new speaker. Now, this listening was not with any microphone or any testing. Just plain A/B. The idea was to find a better sounding speaker of the two. But we initially thought the speaker which was "bright" became "natural" sounding after we listened and went back n forth. We all do have our likes and dislikes. Those who come from analog will find the flat speakers all bright. Same with those who come with tube amps. Because they are used to that kind of sound. So, in my opinion, it takes time to get adjusted and we can only know the difference when we quickly go back and forth. You never know what one ends up liking! :)
 
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Audioman - no worries from my side. I don't own the thread and noobs like me are prolly keenly reading all the debates n soaking up the knowledge.

However I feel that somewhere the action shifted from the living room (home) where it was intended to be to the studio (pro setup) and a lot of good advice shared was applicable to a studio set up.

I think the thread was superb and the discussions exciting. So much information and views were presented and so many clever debates happened in the right spirit.

The discussions about studios is always interesting because that is where all the music is created and discussing the process is always useful when trying to figure out how to buy the right equipment for its reproduction

Hope you you continue to soak up the right bits of information from the various posts in this thread :) Enjoy
 
However I feel that somewhere the action shifted from the living room (home) where it was intended to be to the studio (pro setup) and a lot of good advice shared was applicable to a studio set up.

Hey Vishal, since you are from Bombay, you could drop in at our showroom when you are in the Mahim area and we will be happy to demo some bookshelf speakers we have on display, and have some more interesting discussions too. It makes it easier to explain various other things on site

PANDAM Professional Audio
 
Now, the stereo guys who may not have these tweaks on their amps so they have to go with speaker which are colored. Or get an amp which offers at least some eq and/or bass treble controls.
Most commercially available amps have at least Bass and Treble controls. Some older ones even have control to tweak the mids. If more tweaking is required, they have graphic equalisers.

For people with better budgets, they have the things DEQX etc which are not only versatile but can also be used by noobs.

It makes it easier to explain various other things on site

That is a real smart idea. To get real and listen.
 
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Most commercially available amps have at least Bass and Treble controls. Some older ones even have control to tweak the mids. If more tweaking is required, they have graphic equalisers.

For people with better budgets, they have the things DEQX etc which are not only versatile but can also be used by noobs.

Yes, you are right. I have an Adcom multi-channel amp and that does not have any controls. But most of the stereo amps do have it.

About the DEQx -yes they are good and do a good job at eq'ing the room and take care of many modes. Although it does convert the analog signal to digital, perform the processing and convert it back to analog. From what I have heard, the ADC and DAC stages in those are quite transparent but those who put too much emphasis on ADC/DAC will have a bit of heartburn. I did use a Behringer Feedback destroyer for my subs but I never bothered about the ADC/DAC stage.
 
About the DEQx -yes they are good and do a good job at eq'ing the room and take care of many modes. Although it does convert the analog signal to digital, perform the processing and convert it back to analog. From what I have heard, the ADC and DAC stages in those are quite transparent but those who put too much emphasis on ADC/DAC will have a bit of heartburn. I did use a Behringer Feedback destroyer for my subs but I never bothered about the ADC/DAC stage.

If one is using a thing like DEQX, one need not use a pre at all. Take digital out from the source, feed to the DEQX and take its analogue out to the power amps. I cannot forget the sound from one such a setup with OB speakers where that gent used the analogue out to two Adcom monoblocks to drive twin 10/12" (don't remember) woofers in isobaric configuration and an adcom power amp to drive the full range drivers.
 
Nice thread. Just to add:

1) tweeter height is not about ear level. It shud be minimum 1.2m above floor and directed towards listeners ear.
2) as rightly pointed by some members, no adjustment in floorstanders for back wAll Cancellations, so bs with right woofer placed righly will sound better.
3) if u remove low freq driver from one fs, there will not be any change in sound. Since low freq are not directional and only 1 low freq driver will suffice.

Just my basic understanding, pls correct me if im wrong
 
I was hoping that I would like them now. But nope, it now sounded not as detailed. Turns out, we both like the detailed sound of the new speaker. The singers voice is actually raspy and it did sounded now natural.

we went back and forth between the two speakers and different tracks. Every time, I like the new speaker which sounded more natural, detailed. The first one had more bass but the lack of detail was now bothering me. The friend ended up keeping the new speaker. Now, this listening was not with any microphone or any testing. Just plain A/B. The idea was to find a better sounding speaker of the two. But we initially thought the speaker which was "bright" became "natural" sounding after we listened and went back n forth. We all do have our likes and dislikes. Those who come from analog will find the flat speakers all bright. Same with those who come with tube amps. Because they are used to that kind of sound. So, in my opinion, it takes time to get adjusted and we can only know the difference when we quickly go back and forth. You never know what one ends up liking! :)
Welcome to the "speaker burn-in" phenomena (rather it is our "ears burn-in" I should say)
 
Hey Vishal, since you are from Bombay, you could drop in at our showroom when you are in the Mahim area and we will be happy to demo some bookshelf speakers we have on display, and have some more interesting discussions too. It makes it easier to explain various other things on site

PANDAM Professional Audio

Hi I stay in Bandra so will come by your shop. What brands do you carry? Where r u located?
 
Hi I stay in Bandra so will come by your shop. What brands do you carry? Where r u located?

220, 2nd Floor, Hammersmith Ind Est, Narayan Pathare Street, Sitladevi Temple Rd, Mahim, Bombay 16. Mobile +91 9867345336 Turn left at Victoria Church / School signal towards the railway, when you reach Kolhapur Dairy turn left into the lane & you will find Hammersmith Industrial Estate there. Please phone me to ensure I am there before you come. We sell Genelec only, but will be happy to discuss more about how to choose speakers when we meet at the showroom
 
Dear FM,

Now isnt the price of BS + Floor stands + SubWoof = (approx price of) a FS of the same stable ?

What I've gathered and concluded so far based on the posts here and my auditions is that a FS speaker (generally speaking) sounds better, richer, fuller than a BS speaker. This is primarily due to the design - a larger area in a FS allows the sound to be reproduced better etc etc.
However, FS cost more and for the same price one can get a better sounding BS. (i.e. a PSB B6 is about 40K and T5 is about 60 K or a KEF Q300 vs a KEF Q500).

I am looking at a BS, will mount them on stands and invest in a SubW later vs buying a FS of similar quality.

Here is my question - If one adds in the price of a pair of Floorstands and a subwoof to a BS (say PSB B6), the price comes to about the same as a FS (T5). So, isn't the price difference eliminated?

If space and acoustics are not an issue, isnt the price difference eliminated and hence an FS a much more attractive option? I was comparing the costs of a 40K B6 and a 60K T5. Both sound very good so was naturally it came to budget .. but now it seems .... the total costs are similar.

Does it makes sense or am I way off here ...
 
Wharfedale Linton Heritage Speakers in Red Mahogany finish at a Special Offer Price. BUY now before the price increase.
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