A journey begins...

@Dr. Bass, nothing beats a DD or an idler for PRAT... do get your hands on a DD or idler as a side project... analogue is all about experimentation...

The best PRAT I have heard till date from a turntable was in Avid Acutus...a belt drive;). Just like the best tubes and SS gears try to converge their best qualities and sound alike, similarly the best DD, ID and BD turntables converge. PRAT is not a function of speed and torque alone, if that was the case isolation of TT should not affect PRAT, but it does. PRAT is a very complex subject and almost everything in a TT can be tweaked to get better PRAT but I will be touching some fundamental areas (as suggested by some Verdier guys) when I get down to it and post the results here.
 
I saw a big box, thought it must be, maybe, a power amp.

Enlarged to picture to discover it is the phono pre-amp!

Wow.

All teamed with an old name in British hifi. How is Naim? ten or more years ago, it was considered an acquired taste. Now I wonder if this might have meant that it gave a natural sound?

Errr... No pun intended, even my sense of humour is not that bad :o

Thad, I have mentioned elsewhere on this forum also, Naim of yesteryears and Naim of today are very different. 15 years back the sound of Naim really was something that was not for everyone. That is how it clearly formed a camp. Whereas the Naim after the year 2000 is different. It retains its core values but it now has a more universal sound. Old timer Naimees dont like the new Naims all that much and the new Naimees dont like the old sound as much. The current Naims are very refined and sounds more like real hifi. Whether they sound natural or not that I would request you to listen and judge. To me it does.
 
@Dr. Bass, nothing beats a DD or an idler for PRAT... do get your hands on a DD or idler as a side project... analogue is all about experimentation...

That is exact opposite reason I got into analogue. I believe analog is the way to get off the experimentation mode and get deeper into music. I know there are always so many things to take care of in analog and also so many things to try but I hope it is not as compulsive as in digital:rolleyes:
 
Whether they sound natural or not that I would request you to listen and judge. To me it does.
Thanks, I'd like to.

I know there are always so many things to take care of in analog and also so many things to try but I hope it is not as compulsive as in digital:rolleyes:
I fear that it may be much more so! Enjoy :)

How about making the bridge? Probably those who invest a considerable amount of money and time in superb TT/phono setups would consider it sacrilege to use them for digitising, which is a pity as they would probably get the best results. Just a thought: not an attempt to start any kind of digital/analogue debate in this thread :o
 
How about making the bridge? Probably those who invest a considerable amount of money and time in superb TT/phono setups would consider it sacrilege to use them for digitising, which is a pity as they would probably get the best results. Just a thought: not an attempt to start any kind of digital/analogue debate in this thread :o

:)
I really believe that if one has a good ADC, a good Vinyl rig might be the source for some really good High Rez music.(of course only as long as the analogue was from an analogue master)
 
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Congrats Dr. Bass,
Looks like a well engineered turntable. How does the sound compare to digital system ? Would you say "Abhi Bass", This is what I was looking for.
Regards :)
 
MAJOR ROADBLOCK :(

I had mentioned in my short first impression of the TT setup that it is good but I am not satisfied with the PRAT. I did not elaborate it more because I myself did not know exactly what is missing. Just that the sense of immediacy and drive that makes one tap his foot was not coming through satisfactorily. I thought I will allow the cartridge to break in and try with some isolation platforms etc etc.
Cartridge has actually reached about 30 hours of play time and has improved from day zero to now. However the "full of life" sound of LP which in the first place got me hooked to analog was not coming through.

I have a simple headphone setup which comprises of a AKG Q701 and a little tube headphone amp. This combination somehow has a very gripping presentation. Very honest, musical and great timing. I used to take it to all the serious TT evaluation process and after listening to the TT in the main rig I used this little setup to cross check my evaluation and it always gave me a very accurate insight of the TT setup.

Yesterday, as usual I was listening to my TT on my main rig and suddenly it struck me that I havent used my little headphone rig on my own TT setup. So, for sake fun I dug out my headphone and the little amp, connected them to the TT setup. So my headphone amp was connected directly to the Leben phonostage. Guess what....MIRACLE !!! Glorious music with amazing dynamics, great timing, "full of life"! I was astounded. This is what I expect from a TT setup of this level and it is all there. To double check I played quite a few known LPs. The result was loud and clear, the sound was superb.

why didnt it sound the same with my main rig ? Suddenly something flashed to me like a lightning. My Leben phonostage is an all tube equipment and obviously has a tube output stage. My Naim integrated is a SS design and that too its preamp stage is passive. Generally a tube output stage has a very high output impedance and an SS amp WITHOUT an active preamp means relatively low input impedance. Bad match !! Off I went to my laptop to google out the specs of these two gears. Here is what I get:

Naim Nait 5i:
Input Impedance - 20 kohms

Leben RS-30EQ phonostage:
Output Impedance - >10 kohms :eek::sad::mad:

This is unbelievable. The general theory is this ratio should be at least 10, more the better. In my case it is less than 2:(. No wonder that the sound did not have enough life and drive. I am sad:sad:. I did not expect to meet a serious road block so early in the journey. Moreover the leben phonostage is soooo musical, it was the first thing I bought while shopping for TT setup. Now it doesnt work in my setup. Either I have to buy a tube amp like a Leben CS300 which has high input impedance or change the phonostage to something else which has low output impedance. Either case I lose my preferred combination. The Leben CS300 is very nice but for my Tannoys I need at least 30 watts (CS600 is out of my budget). Moreover the Naim combo really rocks and has settled in very well with the speakers. My idea was to go higher in the Naim ladder slowly. It cannot happen if I retain the Leben phonostage.

This is a silly mistake, how could I miss the specs so badly. Anyway, I am at least relaxed that I found this issue early otherwise I would gone for upgrading other areas of my system just to fix this issue but I could have never got it right because of this serious mismatch. I saved myself from that frustration and of course blowing money on unnecessary upgrades.

I will be putting the Leben phonostage for sale. I dont know what I can replace it with, I will have to research.
 
MAJOR ROADBLOCK :(


I will be putting the Leben phonostage for sale. I dont know what I can replace it with, I will have to research.

i recently ordered a tube phono from Virenji... he is putting in the best Cinemag trannies on it for my Dl103 Pro... do give it a shot. the latest avatar of his phono is quite something...
 
Abhi really Sorry to hear this...

Check this out

....The low-frequency output impedance was ridiculously high, at 28k ohms at 20Hz, and was still an extremely high 14k ohms at 1kHz and 6k ohms at 20kHz. The RS-30EQ needs to be used with a preamp having an input impedance of at least 100k ohms. (The CS300 just about meets that need.)


Leben RS-30EQ phono preamplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com
 
Hi Abhi,

Before you put your Leben phono preamp for sale, try it with an outboard tube buffer, to bring the overall impedance down. This is what Leben themselves should have done - I will venture to say that it's poor design to send out a product with that high an output impedance.

Something like: http://http://shop.grantfidelity.com/B-283-Tube-Processor.html

Regards,
Viren

Yes Viren, I know what you mean. Most of these boutique Japanese products are so non-universal, it is as if the designer made it just for himself suiting his exact requirements (sonically and technically) we are just issued a copy of it if we ask for. That way Leben is at least more professional to publish these specs out. Many Japanese products dont mention even the basic specs. But then because of their extreme character they end up making extremely good "sounding" products.

Regarding the buffer stage, yes that I was the first thing I considered. I am looking at Burson Audio buffer stage:
AB-160 Audio Buffer

But then the thought of adding another active component in the chain gives me jitters. One more component that too at the line level signal stage, one more level of processing, loss and coloration. One more interconnect. All this not for the sake of improvement but just to make the system run without any issues:rolleyes:. I will give this a try only if I get to demo this gear in my rig.
I will try.
 
hi abhi, being in singapore changing your phono should not be that tough and the leben sells well. i feel you could just change it unless the sound signature is something you cannot compromise.
why not a Naim phono stage ;)
 
hi abhi, being in singapore changing your phono should not be that tough and the leben sells well. i feel you could just change it unless the sound signature is something you cannot compromise.
why not a Naim phono stage ;)

I am keeping all options open Arj. Whichever works is fine with me. I have already put it up on sale here but at the same time contacted the Burson dealer to discuss the buffer stage.
 
Hi Dr Bass

Sorry to hear about the mismatch. You could give the Allnic H1200 phonostage a try. Output impedance is 1.2 Kohm. You can buy it from Hammertone Audio at $1000.
 
The Monk Audio phono stage from Germany also comes highly recommended. Worth looking at. If you are listening to pre 70 lps you can choose the equalisation curve for each label.
 
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Dr. Bass,

Before you sell the Leben phono, would you kindly let me know what is the best price you got in sgp? As you know, I am still looking for a good phono, and since I am fond of MM/MI carts, poor design or not, I would like to consider it, although at the moment I do not see how I am going to afford it.

Regards.
 
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