A journey begins...

[jls001]

Congrats on a new phonostage, a nice listening room with a verdant view, and the Twelve Hundred!!

I know the story is to be continued, but let me jump the gun and ask which cart ended up replacing (or is slated to replace) the 103Pro?

 

[santhosh]

Abhi,
Nice detailed and informative writeup. Was travelling and hence browing on phone. Now that I saw the pics on a comp, must say (again) that you have set it up very nicely. Love the theme and the mood that the room creats. Awaiting your decision on the cart. Go SPU

To add to Thad and Asit's comments, the LP cover may also fade due to the heat from the halogen(?) light.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

It is actually light, not heat, that fades colours. I forget ... is it the UV?. Sunlight seems to be the worse culprit, hence our clothes aging more on the washing line than they do on our bodies.

I'd assumed halogen, as so many of those kind of lights are, but as Dr Bass says there is no heat he can feel, either they are something else, or they are properly shielded.

Anyway, the album cover is absolutely a part of the vinyl experience. The CD cover was but a pale imitation, and files on a hdd have robbed us entirely of that romance.

But all this is a much more general topic than the Dr's equipment and his enviable home!

 

[prem]

Hi Dr Bass


If you are reconsidering Leben 300, i would also look at the Almarro 318A. A really nice sounding SET integrated amp with no feedback. They also have a 318B with feedback. Its a 18 watter.

 

[Dr.Bass]

Thad and Asit, I will take your suggestion seriously. Will keep some cheap records near the light and good ones away . That little decoration actually does a lot in giving the analogue theme to the room and makes up the mood. There is no heat at all but yes there is light and the records are not dead upright so I will be careful about it.

Amit the current room is about 17 X 14 feet. I am not utilizing the whole space for music though. My listening distance is about 7.5 ft from the speaker plane. It is okay because the soundstage is all behind so I never feel I am too close.

Regarding the Denon. I wanted to write more (both pros and cons) but I held back myself because 103 is too big a name and I am too new to this game. I have heard some very nice budget cartridges from Ortofon and Audio Technica. They never screamed high end but the sound was always uniform, predictable, consistent and still audiophile grade. Good enough to not bother about digital. So, I think Denon could be a one off case which didnt work for me.

Now I have two TTs and no carts. The carts to consider for the Verdier are:

1. Ortofon Kontrapunkt A
2. Ortofon Kontrapunkt H
3. Ortofon Rondo Red
4. ZYX R50 Bloom
5. ZYX RS-30-02
6. Ortofon 2M black

Prem, I did think about Decca carts but they are suspension less and hence sound very unforgiving with lower quality records. I have heard them once.
Santhosh, SPU is an option but too expensive if you want to get a good one.

For Technics I am getting a Ortofon 2M Red.

 

[prem]

Hi Dr Bass

Yes the Decca is a little less forgiving but it sounds stellar on good recordings. I am also not very sure SME and Denon is a good match. Tonearms like EMT, Fidelity would probably be a better match with the Denon. You will need a high mass tonearm to make the Denon sing. SME, Regas are all low mass. The Zu guys however recommend the Rega 600/700 with their modified Denon cartridge.

 

[prem]

Hi Dr Bass


When i was on the lookout for a vinyl set up, i was recommended that for older cartridges like EMT, Denon 103 a heavy mass tonearm must be used. These came from people who are heavily into vinyl.

 

[Kishor]

Hey Dr Bass,

Congratulations on the new TT & rig and an impressive set up. Of course the performance must be equally impressive. I live in Singapore and would like to experience the performance once you are through with your set up. Pls chk my PM.

Cheers, Kishor

 

[gvenu]

Hello Abhi,


Very neet set up and a nice listening room. can't forget my first TT!

Hoping to listen this one day

Regards,
Venu

 

[Dr.Bass]

Yes Prem, I agree with you and to some extent I am sure the Denon would perform better on a heavier tonearm. But the sme 3012 is not too bad. The Denon is used widely all around with many different tonearms and if it had such a special requirement then it wouldn't have been used so widely. It does better with heavier arm but by how much ? The 3012 was also recommended by the tt manufacturer to be paired with 103 that means it should be a decent combo if not great. But it had a long way to go even for the price it sells IMO. It could be that typical unmodified vintage tts benefit from this additional attack.

 

[Dr.Bass]

Hey Dr Bass,

Congratulations on the new TT & rig and an impressive set up. Of course the performance must be equally impressive. I live in Singapore and would like to experience the performance once you are through with your set up. Pls chk my PM.

Cheers, Kishor

Yes definitely we will meet. Please pm me your Singapore contact details.

 

[prem]

Hi Dr Bass


Agree with you. Highly possible the Denon 103 must be showing up in a top of the line table like Verdier.

 

[Dr.Bass]

Hello Abhi,


Very neet set up and a nice listening room. can't forget my first TT!

Hoping to listen this one day

Regards,
Venu

Thank you venu sir. Please do not forget to ping me if you ever happen to cross over Singapore.

 

[Asit]

Dr.Bass,
I am delighted that you are considering the Leben too. You have 93 db speakers, so getting enough loudness would not be a problem for either CS300 or CS300XS. Frankly, you won't need more than 10 watts per channel rms for ear-splitting sound. However, if you have the impedance or phase vs frequency curve for the Turnberrys, that would be really helpful. Pairing the Leben with highly sensitive speakers with 10" drivers promises to be a mouthwatering prospect. However, changing the stock power cord on the Leben really helps in my opinion, it would significantly improve bass, dynamics and overall focus of the sound. Is it not possible in Singapore to try the amp out at your home? It is far easier than taking 30kg/piece speakers to the amp-shop (Audionote?). Just one word of caution: make sure you have the GE 5751's as pre tubes. Currently, I think both the CS300 and CS300XS come with Sovtek 12AX7's for the pre section (because Leben ran out of these old GE tubes), but the Sovtek 12AX7s are not nearly as good as the GE5751 as mine has. The stock Sovtek power tubes (EL84) are good though.

You should also consider perhaps the Almarro as prem has suggested, many guys on the net think very highly of it. I have not heard it, but read a lot about the brand (Japanese if remember correctly). Would love to hear your opinion on these brands that are not possible to hear in India.

Regards.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Thad and Asit, I will take your suggestion seriously. Will keep some cheap records near the light and good ones away . That little decoration actually does a lot in giving the analogue theme to the room and makes up the mood. There is no heat at all but yes there is light and the records are not dead upright so I will be careful about it.

You could always keep a selection of your favourite record sleeves on display, with the discs themselves in safer storage. hyeah:

 

[arj]

Hi Dr Bass


Agree with you. Highly possible the Denon 103 must be showing up in a top of the line table like Verdier.

Abhi, adding on to what prem is saying about the verdier being at a far higher level for the humble 103, the denon also needs around 16 - 25 GM of effective mass for ideal presentation. I believe the sme 12 hovers around 15 gms..those who are using this combo are not getting its full potential and hence some do tweak it by adding weights to improve dynamics.

But the ones you are considering, especially the zyx would anyway be at a different level of performance ..which your TT demands.

I also share asits enthusiasm on the leben..the cx300 should be a wonderful pairing. Almarros should be easy to demo at spore..they used to be very highly discussed some years back on the echo lab forum there

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Asit]

Well, I see that Dr.Bass has already addressed the issue of the cartridge compliance and its compatibility with the SME 3012 S2. I found the audiogon thread AudiogoN Forums: SME 3012 S2 + DL103Pro = thin sound ????
where this issue is brought up and discussed.

In that discussion, a member "213cobra" has produced a very nice answer. He has stated that Denon's own compliance number (measured at 100 Hz) is to be multiplied by 1.8 to arrive at the industry standard compliance (at 10 Hz). Well,from vinyl engine.com I get a figure of 6 for compliance (in standard units). Multiplying by 1.8, the compliance then becomes 10.8

Using the formula (given for example in my cartridge compliance thread: http://www.hifivision.com/phono-turntables/18378-cartridge-compliance.html), I get a resonance frequency of 11.42 Hz (using 9.5 g for the effective mass of the arm, and 8.5 g for the mass of the cart).

Now, the ideal resonance frequency should be ideally around 10 Hz, and usually anything between 8 to 12 Hz is regarded okay. I personally think even 7 Hz is okay in concrete buildings as in India.

True, the SME-Denon pairing is on the edge of that 8-12 Hz window, but should it really be that unsatisfactory? Generally when the resonance freq becomes close to 15 Hz or above, it is a bad match.

Can anybody explain why this is a bad match? It may be a marginal match, but not a particularly bad one, in this theoretical estimation based on the given numbers.

Only one doubt. If the vinyl engine data on the cartridge compliance is actually based on industry standard, then the multiplication by a factor of 1.8 is not needed and the compliance value is really 6. Then putting the numbers back on the formula, we get 15.3 Hz for the resonance frequency, and this is really bad.

Any way, the Denon is gone. But I am trying to understand the problem.

Regards.

 

[prem]

Hi Arj


Jaibir, a forum member also has the Rethm Saadhanas. He tried the Leben 300 with it and was not happy. He found it a little sluggish. Since Dr Bass is very particular about PRAT, i suggested the Almarro 318A. It is single ended and uses the 6C33 tube which is one of the most linear tubes.

 

[Asit]

prem,

Whatever the Leben is, it is not sluggish. That is one thing it is not. It is not just my personal opinion. I have nearly all reviews, forum discussions on the Leben CS300 and CS300XS, and not in one of them you will find a report of sluggishness. If you want, I can produce all the links. Well, Dr.Bass has heard it at my place. Please ask him.

Of course, the big question remains: what does one mean when one says an audio equipment is sluggish. I have my opinions, but I do not want to get into that discussion.

Regards

 

[prem]

Hi Asit


I have not heard the Leben with the Rethms myself. So cannot comment. I think what Jaibir meant was the Rethms sounded slow with the Leben. Maybe sluggish is a wrong word. Jaibir is the best person to answer this. I have also had the Dehavillands with the Rethms and they sounded wrong to me. Dr Bass reference is Naim. There is no way a Leben will have the same PRAT as a Naim. Leben is a killer on tone but its definitely not great on timing. From what i understand he is looking for the tone of Leben with the timing of Naim. The Almarro 318A is much more likely to manage that balance