A journey begins...

i have heard the leben with the Blumenhofer and it did sound slow and lacklusture.. the energy on music went all missing although i could not fault the soundstaging et al.

i guess speaker synergy is making the difference as it is anything but slow in my setup.

Anyway Eagerly awaiting Amitnoidas report on the leben -Tannoy pairing once he listens to it !
 
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Agreed Arj. The amp speaker synergy is very critical.

Dr Bass, you could also look at Trafomatic Premise and Zen Torii. Have heard good things about these amps.

Dr Bass, have you considered the First Watt amps? I will probably be getting their SIT 2 amp soon.
 
Dr Bass reference is Naim. There is no way a Leben will have the same PRAT as a Naim. Leben is a killer on tone but its definitely not great on timing. From what i understand he is looking for the tone of Leben with the timing of Naim. The Almarro 318A is much more likely to manage that balance

Prem,

Amp-speaker synergy is of course very important, especially when one has an amp with only a few watts. In this case with Dr.Bass, he already has speakers of sufficiently high sensitivity. At the same time, the speakers also have 10" drivers. In this situation, the speakers have to be of top quality so that sluggishness does not creep in. It's not easy especially on speakers' part to be of high sensitivity and having large drivers at the same time, because every vibration is induced much easier (because of high sensitivity), but the vibration also has to die down as soon as required (it's difficult because more mass is involved for large drivers). Hence in most such situations one tests out the speakers much more than the amps. I have speakers which have very similar specs (10" woofers, 5" mid woofers and 93.4 db sensitivity), and that's why I have tried to understand some of these things a few years ago.

However, if the speakers are top quality (as is the case I believe with the Turnberrys), the combination of low-wattage tube amps and such speakers can be really really good.

I do not want to get into a discussion regarding PRaT and speed. As I said I have some views on this but won't discuss that now, at least not in this thread. I do not necessarily agree with you on the comparisons of Naim and Leben, although in the recent times I have not heard any Naim. I also do not agree with the statement that Leben is a tone-master only. Actually far far from it, in the opinion of most. Actually this is something that makes the Leben very different from most tube-amps at least in its price range. There is a thread in pinkfishmedia where discussions are on tube amps upto USD 5K or something like that. All aspects of tube amps were discussed by people who seemed to me as very very experienced. All the usual suspects were discussed including Alamarro and Leben. Five were shortlisted by the thread-starter and Leben as the cheapest member featured in it. Finally the guy bought Berning (Output Transformer Less or OTL tube amp).

As Arj also opined, 'speed' has never been a problem with him. Similar here. If there is a problem with the music I am hearing, I should be able to detect it because I believe at least there I should have a bit of strength.

Regards.
 
Hi Asit

Arj found the Leben and Blumenhofer not sounding correct. How do you explain that? There is no point getting into a discussion because no one amp works with all speakers. There are just too many factors involved.

Lets get back to the thread. I think more than an amp, Dr Bass is in search of the ideal cartridge for his set up. The amount of experience Dr Bass has had in the last few months is probably much more than our cumulative experience. There is probably very little that he can help him. Lets hope he finds a cartridge he likes.
 
Hi Asit

Arj found the Leben and Blumenhofer not sounding correct. How do you explain that? There is no point getting into a discussion because no one amp works with all speakers. There are just too many factors involved.

Lets get back to the thread. I think more than an amp, Dr Bass is in search of the ideal cartridge for his set up. The amount of experience Dr Bass has had in the last few months is probably much more than our cumulative experience. There is probably very little that he can help him. Lets hope he finds a cartridge he likes.

Prem,

What Arj found with his Leben and the Blumenhofers, can be explained in various ways, and one of them is already described in my post above. Actually, in the above if you tried to understand the real meaning of my post, you will see actually I have discussed what is meant by PRaT in the context of speakers. Any way, my point is that the amp cannot be singled out for the fault, as you have been doing, and in the same breath let me also say that I'll not also single out the Bumenhofers for the sluggishness of the combination, there can be various other factors.

Dr.Bass's recent experience includes also hearing the Leben CS300 at my place with my speakers. But I get the cue from your post. Sorry for the trouble. I thought this thread is more about Dr.Bass's whole set-up and not just the TT, because everything he has is new.

Regards.
 
Guys, lots happening on this thread. There is no problem discussing the whole chain. I have my own comments on Leben which I will write. I am currently typing this from an internet parlour in kolkata. Once I reach home I will write more. Sorry Asit, I have just arrived Kol and my train to my home town is in another couple of hours so cannot meet up with you today :). But we are meeting soon.
 
Hi Asit


Its always a pleasure reading your posts. I truly respect your views.

There has always been one thing that i have found confusing. We always aspire that our system tries and replicate an unamplified concert. But more than 95% of our recordings are studio recordings. I have been to enough studio recordings. Just day before i was at one. And it sounds very different. No home system even remotely sounds like a recording studio. The bass is so incredibly tight in a studio that it is unbelievable. The mids come through crystal clear. However loud you hear your ears will not cringe. At home these recordings sound very different. I really get confused as to what to listen for in a system. What should it sound like? Should it replicate what i normally hear in a studio?
 
Need more power than what the Lebens provide? Here's the 13 inch tall Kronzilla tube from the Czech Republic :):

Tip_40
 
Gerry the Merry, not live. Only recording. When recording they never sing the full track at one go. They sing a line or two. Then the next and so on. Then the final instrumentals are added, effects where needed are given, then mixed and mastered. Its very very different from a live version. Without taking names, many times the recording sounds besur, which is then corrected digitally. These singers are taken because of their voice quality.
 
Hi anm, now you know why when you listen to old singers, it always touches you emotionally. Digital is not yet so advanced that it can put emotion into a voice
 
Sorry guys, I have been out of blogging for some time now. In the mean time analog has been picking up momentum. Every day I get a new playlist request from my wife, difficult to imagine :D.

The latest addition is a ZYX RS30 low output MC cartridge. I was looking for a cartridge upgrade after I decided to let go of the 103pro. Between the Ortofon Kontrapunkt H and ZYX I chose the ZYX simply because it was a better deal. Sonically I still cannot say which one is better because I havent heard a Kontra H. Moreover ZYX has always been strong in two aspects, "timing" and "dynamics". Both these were qualities were high on my priority list. Kontrapunkt H guarantees tone.

Generally timing and dynamics are things which are very instantly apparent and that is exactly what I thought when I heard the ZYX. Quantum leaps, just no comparison in dynamics with the Denon, ZYX is a totally different class here. Timing and pace also improved significantly. The start - stop of the notes is startling. The silence between the notes is dead silent and suddenly from something very black and quiet an array of instruments spring to action almost surprising you. It requires getting used to. Individual notes carry a lot of subtlety and micro dynamics which was severely lacking with the Denon. The difference is like this, with the Denon one might say music is dynamic but with ZYX, that piano that guitar every instrument is worth admiring individually while still enjoying music as a whole. Dynamics of individual instruments becomes very noticeable making its importance felt in the mix. It will not be wrong to call the ZYX a more hi-fi cartridge but I would say that in a positive sense. Listening to a western classical on ZYX is an experience.

I also realized, the finer the stylus the deeper it digs into the record groove the lower is the groove noise. With ZYX the surface noise has been reduced by almost 80% compared to Denon. It is so so quiet, one will find it hard to believe it is a record playing. Even when the groove has been damaged and the noise is unavoidable, the signal to noise ratio is so high that you tend to automatically reject the noise and listen to the relevant content i.e music. With the Denon music and noise was almost 50-50 in such cases, never allowing you to get over the noise.

Another area of improvement is the inner groove distortion. With the Denon the inner groove distortion was so apparent that in many cases I stop listening to the last track mid way and flip the record. With the ZYX I just do not know when it has reached the last track. I can hear a slight bit of distortion in some records but in most cases it is so clear and open even in those final grooves that it never bothers me.

All in all a very transparent, detailed, dynamic and neutral cartridge.

But there are couple of areas where I still preferred the Denon.
Flow and mid bass warmth:
On music which were not based on detail or dynamics but flow and melody the Denon has an edge. Especially old hindi classics of 50s and early 60s, early classic rock (led zep, Doors, Grateful Dead etc) and the likes. Most music of these types were not well recorded, typically instruments were veiled and played as a crowd and only the lead vocalist normally is prominently audible. These type of music purely were based on melody, flow and emotion. We listen to the song. The Denon is more fluid and has a shade warmer tone to it. That makes music like these more realistic and involving. The ZYX is not bad but because none of its strengths are utilized in these kind of music while its relative weakness is clearly exposed it feels like an average cartridge here. If my preferred genre were only these kind of music then I will not buy the ZYX. For that matter I will not buy the Denon either. I will rather buy a nice MM cart. But in all probability I will also not buy a high end TT for this music, I will be happy with a Technics or a Rega, keeping it under $1k.

There are discussions discussions on other forums asking "Can ZYX rock ?". General consensus is ZYX can rock if given a heavy tonearm but if your primary consumption is rock you can do better. I also think so even though the best cartridge I have ever heard on rock and on all other kinds of music is a ZYX 4D. It is expensive so no point bringing it in the discussion. In general any high precision tool needs an expert to handle it, ZYX is exactly that. An expert can make it sing like none other. I am far from it, yet the magic of analogue is such that one always enjoys the music even though the work is in progress :).
 
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But there are couple of areas where I still preferred the Denon.

Is your SME arm the one with removable headshell or fixed one? You could buy a second headshell and quickly (and painlessly) swap to another cart, depending on your program type.

Also, IGD is dependent on how well adjusted are the two null points, and not on the cart per se. Personally I am quite happy with a print out of the stupid protractor from vinylengine (you need to log in to download). After carefully aligning both nulls using the stupid protractor (which must be printed to scale), there should be hardly any IGD noticeable. The adjustment is certainly fiddly but worth the time and patience.

There is an alternative protractor from Studio Kuro (studio kurosiwo | The portfolio site of designer Sipo Siwo) but that site is currently in hibernation. Do PM me your email ID. I will mail you the one for 3009/3012. In case you haven't tried the stupid protractor, I can send you that as well with additional hand written notes on how to use it.
 
Is your SME arm the one with removable headshell or fixed one? You could buy a second headshell and quickly (and painlessly) swap to another cart, depending on your program type.

Also, IGD is dependent on how well adjusted are the two null points, and not on the cart per se. Personally I am quite happy with a print out of the stupid protractor from vinylengine (you need to log in to download). After carefully aligning both nulls using the stupid protractor (which must be printed to scale), there should be hardly any IGD noticeable. The adjustment is certainly fiddly but worth the time and patience.

There is an alternative protractor from Studio Kuro (studio kurosiwo | The portfolio site of designer Sipo Siwo) but that site is currently in hibernation. Do PM me your email ID. I will mail you the one for 3009/3012. In case you haven't tried the stupid protractor, I can send you that as well with additional hand written notes on how to use it.

Thanks for the offer jls. I will PM you my email ID.

MY SME has a removable headshell, yes. But it is not as simple as just replacing the headshell. The headshell alignment decides the channel balance. I need to get a tool to measure channel balance directly off the cartridge so that I can align the headshell after I fit it to the tonearm. Currently my TT was installed another audiophile who has all these tools so he has aligned it. But I can understand your point. It is not a bad idea actually.

Inner groove distortion, well I am not an expert on this subject, it was just my observation. I was told that the classic SME 3012 + SME headshell combination have a peculiar requirement that the cartridge height should be 9mm, only then can two null points be found. Supposedly it was designed for the older MM cartridges which met this requirement quite often. The SME headshell do not have alignment grove for the cartridge, they just have fixed holes where the cartridge can be screwed to. All azimuth alignment needs to happen at the tonearm base which can slide horizontally. Basically these are the restrictions of oldish arms. The new arms have so many adjustments, some even "on the fly", hence cartridges are easy to install and align perfectly. Anyway, my point was, with the ZYX even though the tonearm has remained the same without much change in its adjustments, the inner groove sound a lot clearer without losing too much of the dynamics. It could be due to the SNR of the ZYX or its stylus configuration, not sure.
 
Thanks for the offer jls. I will PM you my email ID.

MY SME has a removable headshell, yes. But it is not as simple as just replacing the headshell. The headshell alignment decides the channel balance.

Buy an extra headshell. Something like: this. Or anything decent with slotted groove. Slotted groove allows better null point alignments. SME's single hole headshell is a pain to get right.

Second cartridge goes into this headshell.

Do null point adjustments using protractor and tighten. The adjustment stays even when you take out the headshell-cart combo. Plug in this combo when there is the urge to listen to LedZep and the likes.

L/R channel balance is usually a function of azimuth alignment. If you want to get anal retentive, you can invest in a Dr Feickart Fozgometer to measure channel balance. Your ears should be sufficient instrumentation, though. On the 3012, the azimuth adjustment is rather crude - firmly hold the arm tube near the pivot point and gently but firmly twist in desired direction. This is possible because the arm tube is a friction fit. I have tried it once on my 3009 and probably will not do it again:). I am glad I didn't break anything. Do read up the manual before doing this. It is one of those "don't try at home" maneouvres.

Currently my TT was installed another audiophile who has all these tools so he has aligned it. But I can understand your point. It is not a bad idea actually.

For 3012, you need a set of allen keys (actually two sizes - one for tightening/loosening the counterweight, and the other smaller one for everything else). If you want, you can buy an electronic balance to set cartridge loading. Personally I use the ProJect mechanical balance and it works fairly well. The markers for cartridge loading on the outboard rider rod of the 3012 are fairly accurate (SME makes high accuracy instruments) and one can safely go by that too (at least I do). And print out a stupid protractor. You're all set!

You would by now realise that nothing in analog is plug and play:) One has to get one's hands dirty, make a few mistakes along the way, and learn. Just make sure you don't break any stylus, though.


Inner groove distortion, well I am not an expert on this subject, it was just my observation. I was told that the classic SME 3012 + SME headshell combination have a peculiar requirement that the cartridge height should be 9mm, only then can two null points be found. Supposedly it was designed for the older MM cartridges which met this requirement quite often. The SME headshell do not have alignment grove for the cartridge, they just have fixed holes where the cartridge can be screwed to. All azimuth alignment needs to happen at the tonearm base which can slide horizontally. Basically these are the restrictions of oldish arms. The new arms have so many adjustments, some even "on the fly", hence cartridges are easy to install and align perfectly. Anyway, my point was, with the ZYX even though the tonearm has remained the same without much change in its adjustments, the inner groove sound a lot clearer without losing too much of the dynamics. It could be due to the SNR of the ZYX or its stylus configuration, not sure.

The cure for IGD is the two point protractor. For free!
 
L/R channel balance is usually a function of azimuth alignment. If you want to get anal retentive, you can invest in a Dr Feickart Fozgometer to measure channel balance.

Then again perhaps not Joshua. Lots of carts have uneven outputs from both channels that will render the reading wrong. Lots of people online don't regard it as an accurate tool to measure balance.

Regards
 
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