Thank you for chiming in Viren. I see that SET is a very special thing even among hard core tube guys. But in most cases they are low powered (spec wise). And then there is this mystery around SET watts vs Push-pull watts vs SS watts. Even among SETs there are those which are pure SETs then the ones with two triodes in parallel configuration and finally the DHT topology which seems to be again special among SET. Would you please kindly say a few words about all these varieties of tube amps and what to expect from each in general ?
A journey begins...
- Thread starter Dr.Bass
- Start date
Thank you for chiming in Viren. I see that SET is a very special thing even among hard core tube guys. But in most cases they are low powered (spec wise). And then there is this mystery around SET watts vs Push-pull watts vs SS watts. Even among SETs there are those which are pure SETs then the ones with two triodes in parallel configuration and finally the DHT topology which seems to be again special among SET. Would you please kindly say a few words about all these varieties of tube amps and what to expect from each in general ?
Two GM70 amps worth considering:
1) Lyrita
2) Glowmaster GM70 from SAC Thailand, single-ended Class A, DHT (iirc), blahx3, SACThailand. Not cheap, though. BTW, they also do push-pull KT88s.
For 845, I think it's hard to beat the Canasyas. They are big, bulky, run real hot, look very sexy (IMO), sound very transparent and do dynamics and detailing like its going out of style.
The lower powered Gaincard may also work well for your setup.
For KT88s, why not one of the Ayon monoblock models?
Viren, please throw some light on ^ as it will help me and many others. I am looking to finalise a tube amp for my Altec A7 Horn Speakers (more than 100dB sensitive). I have already tried Stevieboy's Lyrita 2A3 SET amp and was impressed. I will be listening to his upgraded 2A3 with his Lyrita DHT pre sometime next week.
LFD seems to have hard core followers. See if you can audition this in Singapore. I think their philosophy is minimalist circuitry using the best possible parts, including all silver internal wirings:
LFD Audio NCSE II Integrated Amplifier SEE PHOTO | Solid state | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community
LFD Audio NCSE II Integrated Amplifier SEE PHOTO | Solid state | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community
Prem, I have also noticed that Tube equipments like more of the finite elemente, symposium kind of resonance control which makes them sound very well separated giving them the audiophile qualities, whereas SS equipments can sound too sterile with these typical audiophile isolation products.
Yes, Dr Bass. You might still want to look at Heartsong rack. All said and done, Franck Tchang gets harmonics, speed, dynamics and details out of all his products. SRA is however one rack which seems to be comfortable with anything placed on it. One thing SRA does different from any other rack i have had is it pulls out a lot more low level information. It is also one of the few racks which does not change the tonal qualities.
Last edited:
I have heard the LFD here. It has a very Naim like speed and timing but it sounds relatively thin, more SS like than I can take.
I would love to try out Viren's designs but looks like I am at the wrong place. If I was in Bangalore it would been very easy to get an audition.
Prem, I tried writing to SRA, just got one mail from them that they have received my mail but no further communication:indifferent14:.
BTW, recently a Graaf GM50 amp came up for sale here, I dont know it might still be there. Somehow I did not take interest in it because I dont like Italian designs (sonically) and I was not getting a demo 
.
.
viren bakhshi
Well-Known Member
Hi,
SET amps were the first amps to be made for voice, and music. They are probably the most explored of all amps, by engineers who were the pioneers in reproduced music. Then, they were forgotten. Now, to help their resurgence, an aura has to be created around them, by glib marketeers, for us gullible consumers. It also helps in boosting prices.
SET amps are the simplest of all amps. No circuit could be more basic, more straightforward. In the whole amplification chain, there usually are only three amplifying devices (tubes), and a few resistors and capacitors to set the operating conditions. If you use interstage transformers, even the few capacitors can be eliminated. So what if there's DC flowing through the transformers - enlarge the core, and put an air gap in it. Simple engineering.
And that's the reason for their sound - simplicity. Simple circuits always sound better. There's absolutely no manipulation of the signal - you maintain its purity. Consider push-pull amps, where the signal is split into opposing halves, amplified individually, then recombined in the output transformer. That's certainly manipulating the signal!
Why this should be important in the home, at the end of the music chain, when the signal has already gone through studio contortions, is beyond me. But important it is!
So, the SET amps maintain the purity of music, its dynamics, its harmonic structure. When music is wholesome, it flows, and feels open and dynamic. Something, that additional power in other amps can't emulate.
Because of its virtue, simplicity should be maintained. Use single output tubes, and live with their limitations. Paralleling output tubes, to get more power, means combining separately amplified signals, along with time and phase anomalies. Doesn't sound as clean. Better to select a single, more powerful tube, for more output power.
And, DHTs, they just reproduce tone better! Difficult to describe - you have to hear it!
When you have speakers in the 100 dB sensitivity range, you are totally out of the power game. One watt is enough, the rest is for peaks in music. Go for the amp that gives you the most musical satisfaction!
Regards,
Viren
SET amps were the first amps to be made for voice, and music. They are probably the most explored of all amps, by engineers who were the pioneers in reproduced music. Then, they were forgotten. Now, to help their resurgence, an aura has to be created around them, by glib marketeers, for us gullible consumers. It also helps in boosting prices.
SET amps are the simplest of all amps. No circuit could be more basic, more straightforward. In the whole amplification chain, there usually are only three amplifying devices (tubes), and a few resistors and capacitors to set the operating conditions. If you use interstage transformers, even the few capacitors can be eliminated. So what if there's DC flowing through the transformers - enlarge the core, and put an air gap in it. Simple engineering.
And that's the reason for their sound - simplicity. Simple circuits always sound better. There's absolutely no manipulation of the signal - you maintain its purity. Consider push-pull amps, where the signal is split into opposing halves, amplified individually, then recombined in the output transformer. That's certainly manipulating the signal!
Why this should be important in the home, at the end of the music chain, when the signal has already gone through studio contortions, is beyond me. But important it is!
So, the SET amps maintain the purity of music, its dynamics, its harmonic structure. When music is wholesome, it flows, and feels open and dynamic. Something, that additional power in other amps can't emulate.
Because of its virtue, simplicity should be maintained. Use single output tubes, and live with their limitations. Paralleling output tubes, to get more power, means combining separately amplified signals, along with time and phase anomalies. Doesn't sound as clean. Better to select a single, more powerful tube, for more output power.
And, DHTs, they just reproduce tone better! Difficult to describe - you have to hear it!
When you have speakers in the 100 dB sensitivity range, you are totally out of the power game. One watt is enough, the rest is for peaks in music. Go for the amp that gives you the most musical satisfaction!
Regards,
Viren
>>>
Josh,
Check out Don Garber's SET pure Class A operation, electronics at http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?p=2242
Regards
viren bakhshi
Well-Known Member
I think this is beginning to stray off topic!
Just briefly, in a tube amp circuit, each stage has defined operating conditions, often varying widely from each other. You have to isolate each stage, so they operate optimally. You have to prevent the DC conditions from one stage influencing the next. The easiest way is to use coupling capacitors, which block DC but allow the AC signal to pass through.
An alternate is to use interstage transformers where one winding sees the earlier circuit, the other winding the following circuit. DC is constant flux, so cannot couple from one winding to the other. The AC signal is varying flux, and can, and passes through very easily.
Which technology is better? Try it out , and hear for yourself!
Viren
Just briefly, in a tube amp circuit, each stage has defined operating conditions, often varying widely from each other. You have to isolate each stage, so they operate optimally. You have to prevent the DC conditions from one stage influencing the next. The easiest way is to use coupling capacitors, which block DC but allow the AC signal to pass through.
An alternate is to use interstage transformers where one winding sees the earlier circuit, the other winding the following circuit. DC is constant flux, so cannot couple from one winding to the other. The AC signal is varying flux, and can, and passes through very easily.
Which technology is better? Try it out , and hear for yourself!
Viren
Thanks Viren for your informative post. Your post inspired me to get one level deeper into the different tube designs and hear for myself. Couple of days back I had an appointment with a dealer in Singapore who sells both Audio note and Leben. The amps under consideration were Leben CS300xs and Audio note OTO SE. Leben is a push-pull design whereas Audio Note is a single ended design based on two EL-84 tubes per channel. The Audio Note supposedly implements a low degree of negative feedback as well.
In general I am familiar with the Leben sound. It has always appealed to me. The dynamic, clean and transparent sound yet with a sense tube magic always makes me smile when Leben plays. Audio note on the other hand is quite a bit unknown to me. I have only heard it in the Singapore hifi show where they were playing an Ongaku which doesnt give me any idea about what an OTO would sound like.
When I entered the store Leben was already connected while the AN was lying in one corner. So we started with the Leben. Since I knew the Leben sound I straight away played the most "important" CD among the stack I was carrying, a Hindustani track consisting of only a Sitar, Sarod, Tabla and Tanpura. It is not only a very good recording (Chanda Dhara) but a very musically involving track. I have very familiar with it. The Leben as usual did what it does best, very clean and nuanced presentation, there is a certain purity about its tones, you know there is just no grunge in it. After a 15 mins listening session somehow I felt like I should go to the Audio note, may be because I felt I know the Leben enough.
Same track played back through AN, initial impression, hmmm...tubes are playing !! There was a clear sense of lot more tube things going on. Everything became fuller, a bit of rounding though not much, things more relaxed (not laid back !!), a feeling of calmness. At this point even though I could point out differences between the two amps I could not really judge if one was preferable over the other. The Leben gave me a more "exciting" presentation where as the AN was more like "soothing". So to understand more about AN I started playing a variety of music. A bit of western classical, some female vocals and rock. Rock was interesting, I played CCR and Rainbow. The AN had a way of playing rock, the old school way, nice, full, dynamic, very coherent and foot tapping. One would feel like air guitaring after some time BUT unfortunately the kick drums sounded quite loose, muddy and rounded. I agree that the bass passages were quite heavy but the looseness was not something that one can pass. I played couple of such music and all of them gave me the same impression, dont expect deep and tight bass. OTOH acoustic bass like Tabla, dholak and double bass was okay, meaning it was not as tight as Leben but it was not bothering, there was something likeable about it. It was 30 mins or so listening to AN, I thought I should play just couple of more tracks and get back to the Leben. Played a few live recorded music (Clapton, Jagjit Singh)...Suddenly things started sounding interesting, previously also it was nice but now something special. Music sounded LIVE ! Okay it is a live recording but how live can a live recording sound especially the ones that I am so familiar with for years. After analysing a bit around this "live" thing I had a smile on my face
. Now I was hearing something really special. Then I realized, the amp was lying in a corner so it was cold, now it has warmed up, it was confirmed by the store guy also. I immediately played back some more familiar tracks from other CDs and yes, it was unlike anything I have heard.
I went back to Leben, sometimes one becomes too appreciative of even little improvements...that is dangerous because later it will seem like a appreciation in haste. Leben is a good reference for me to check against. Again the same hindustani CD, then the western classical symphony, Jagjit singh, Tracy Chapman and finally CCR/Rainbow. I took roughly about 15 mins to play all these CDs on Leben..how ? It took less than 2 mins each genre to understand whats going on!!
Generally the Leben had a lot more control when heavy bass passages especially drums come into play, very marked difference. Audio note is almost triple the size of the Leben but cannot hold the drivers in place when something very demanding comes up:lol:. The Leben also had deep control over the images, one could literally see the two halves of the tabla separately. Apart from that there was a see through transparency which is rare even in SS amps. The Leben was also a bit more nimble with better snap.
But the Audio Note had something entirely different to offer, easy to notice (after the warm up though). It made the Leben sound somewhat like a typical solid state amp:sad:. I could never imagine this but the reason I could finish the second round of Leben audition within 15 mins even though I played & CDs was because I was desperate to hear the Leben the way I have always imagined its presentation. I could not accept the Leben to have a typical SS like sound. The same tones which I always adored about Leben now sounded somewhat dry and cut out of the actual whole. The music through Audio note had an "aura", something going on apart from instruments, not sure how to express this. One observation, through the Leben the instruments were clearly separated and the gap between the images had "nothing", it was see-through clean which we audiophiles generally like but now I started feeling the gap is missing "something", I dont know what but the gap was also a bit dry and I would call "non-performing". Can a gap perform ? Well, with the Audio note the gaps are not dry, there is something even the gap which performs and adds to the overall experience, I suppose it is this something that creates the aura I was talking about. It is not grunge or noise that fills the gap, it is something more like ambient..presence information that ultimately connects all the performers, the room/hall and audience (if live recording) together as one unit. With the Leben, it suddenly felt like a well arranged 5 focussed speakers are playing 5 different instruments and I am listening to each of them and combining them in my brain, they are all in tune but some amount of cerebral activity is going on!! Audio Note does it for you, that is why there is a sense of music wash all over your body, mind and soul. This is exactly what I missed with the Leben.
Some of my best friends here are Leben owners so I know the risk I am taking
hyeah:. I hope I am forgiven, believe me I am not happy with my findings as well. Leben is one of the best amps I had on my shortlist for the amp upgrade and now I am in a tough situation. But then here is what I think...when one comes back from a trip to hill station the city seems too noisy and crowded. Same here, Audio note gave me a session of musical tour which had few stunning moments and it really showed me what a complete music reproduction could possibly sound like. That could have made the shortcomings of the Leben a bit too glaring but then I know how much I liked the Leben whenever I have heard it in isolation. Moreover I dont think I can tolerate the muddy bass of the AN...not sure. Another thing, the overall neutrality of Leben will allow me to tailor the sound as per my tastes using tweaks (cables, isolation, room treatments) which I do not think I can do with Audio note because the basic requirement (power, control) is has to come from internals. It is adequately powerful but I know the Tannoy deserves much more. At this point I am stuck.
The next plan is to take my Naim Nait 5i to the same store and do a head to head comparison with Leben. That should give me yet another perspective of what I was actually hearing while comparing Audio Note and Leben.
In general I am familiar with the Leben sound. It has always appealed to me. The dynamic, clean and transparent sound yet with a sense tube magic always makes me smile when Leben plays. Audio note on the other hand is quite a bit unknown to me. I have only heard it in the Singapore hifi show where they were playing an Ongaku which doesnt give me any idea about what an OTO would sound like.
When I entered the store Leben was already connected while the AN was lying in one corner. So we started with the Leben. Since I knew the Leben sound I straight away played the most "important" CD among the stack I was carrying, a Hindustani track consisting of only a Sitar, Sarod, Tabla and Tanpura. It is not only a very good recording (Chanda Dhara) but a very musically involving track. I have very familiar with it. The Leben as usual did what it does best, very clean and nuanced presentation, there is a certain purity about its tones, you know there is just no grunge in it. After a 15 mins listening session somehow I felt like I should go to the Audio note, may be because I felt I know the Leben enough.
Same track played back through AN, initial impression, hmmm...tubes are playing !! There was a clear sense of lot more tube things going on. Everything became fuller, a bit of rounding though not much, things more relaxed (not laid back !!), a feeling of calmness. At this point even though I could point out differences between the two amps I could not really judge if one was preferable over the other. The Leben gave me a more "exciting" presentation where as the AN was more like "soothing". So to understand more about AN I started playing a variety of music. A bit of western classical, some female vocals and rock. Rock was interesting, I played CCR and Rainbow. The AN had a way of playing rock, the old school way, nice, full, dynamic, very coherent and foot tapping. One would feel like air guitaring after some time BUT unfortunately the kick drums sounded quite loose, muddy and rounded. I agree that the bass passages were quite heavy but the looseness was not something that one can pass. I played couple of such music and all of them gave me the same impression, dont expect deep and tight bass. OTOH acoustic bass like Tabla, dholak and double bass was okay, meaning it was not as tight as Leben but it was not bothering, there was something likeable about it. It was 30 mins or so listening to AN, I thought I should play just couple of more tracks and get back to the Leben. Played a few live recorded music (Clapton, Jagjit Singh)...Suddenly things started sounding interesting, previously also it was nice but now something special. Music sounded LIVE ! Okay it is a live recording but how live can a live recording sound especially the ones that I am so familiar with for years. After analysing a bit around this "live" thing I had a smile on my face
. Now I was hearing something really special. Then I realized, the amp was lying in a corner so it was cold, now it has warmed up, it was confirmed by the store guy also. I immediately played back some more familiar tracks from other CDs and yes, it was unlike anything I have heard. I went back to Leben, sometimes one becomes too appreciative of even little improvements...that is dangerous because later it will seem like a appreciation in haste. Leben is a good reference for me to check against. Again the same hindustani CD, then the western classical symphony, Jagjit singh, Tracy Chapman and finally CCR/Rainbow. I took roughly about 15 mins to play all these CDs on Leben..how ? It took less than 2 mins each genre to understand whats going on!!
Generally the Leben had a lot more control when heavy bass passages especially drums come into play, very marked difference. Audio note is almost triple the size of the Leben but cannot hold the drivers in place when something very demanding comes up:lol:. The Leben also had deep control over the images, one could literally see the two halves of the tabla separately. Apart from that there was a see through transparency which is rare even in SS amps. The Leben was also a bit more nimble with better snap.
But the Audio Note had something entirely different to offer, easy to notice (after the warm up though). It made the Leben sound somewhat like a typical solid state amp:sad:. I could never imagine this but the reason I could finish the second round of Leben audition within 15 mins even though I played & CDs was because I was desperate to hear the Leben the way I have always imagined its presentation. I could not accept the Leben to have a typical SS like sound. The same tones which I always adored about Leben now sounded somewhat dry and cut out of the actual whole. The music through Audio note had an "aura", something going on apart from instruments, not sure how to express this. One observation, through the Leben the instruments were clearly separated and the gap between the images had "nothing", it was see-through clean which we audiophiles generally like but now I started feeling the gap is missing "something", I dont know what but the gap was also a bit dry and I would call "non-performing". Can a gap perform ? Well, with the Audio note the gaps are not dry, there is something even the gap which performs and adds to the overall experience, I suppose it is this something that creates the aura I was talking about. It is not grunge or noise that fills the gap, it is something more like ambient..presence information that ultimately connects all the performers, the room/hall and audience (if live recording) together as one unit. With the Leben, it suddenly felt like a well arranged 5 focussed speakers are playing 5 different instruments and I am listening to each of them and combining them in my brain, they are all in tune but some amount of cerebral activity is going on!! Audio Note does it for you, that is why there is a sense of music wash all over your body, mind and soul. This is exactly what I missed with the Leben.
Some of my best friends here are Leben owners so I know the risk I am taking
hyeah:. I hope I am forgiven, believe me I am not happy with my findings as well. Leben is one of the best amps I had on my shortlist for the amp upgrade and now I am in a tough situation. But then here is what I think...when one comes back from a trip to hill station the city seems too noisy and crowded. Same here, Audio note gave me a session of musical tour which had few stunning moments and it really showed me what a complete music reproduction could possibly sound like. That could have made the shortcomings of the Leben a bit too glaring but then I know how much I liked the Leben whenever I have heard it in isolation. Moreover I dont think I can tolerate the muddy bass of the AN...not sure. Another thing, the overall neutrality of Leben will allow me to tailor the sound as per my tastes using tweaks (cables, isolation, room treatments) which I do not think I can do with Audio note because the basic requirement (power, control) is has to come from internals. It is adequately powerful but I know the Tannoy deserves much more. At this point I am stuck. The next plan is to take my Naim Nait 5i to the same store and do a head to head comparison with Leben. That should give me yet another perspective of what I was actually hearing while comparing Audio Note and Leben.
Hi Dr Bass
Welcome to the SET sound. Try and hear the Almarro 318. The shortcomings that you have mentioned in the AN SET will keep reducing as you go up the AN line. As you go up AN uses better transformers. Low level info and bass control in a SET is largely dependent on the quality of the transformers
Welcome to the SET sound. Try and hear the Almarro 318. The shortcomings that you have mentioned in the AN SET will keep reducing as you go up the AN line. As you go up AN uses better transformers. Low level info and bass control in a SET is largely dependent on the quality of the transformers
Last edited:
BTW, have you tried Shindos? Get the Award Winning Diamond 12.3 Floorstanding Speakers on Special Offer
Similar threads
