Amp upgrade with Canton speakers: Feasibility study

Hi dinyaar,

I always had my speakers about 7 feet apart from each other and my listening position is about 10 feet from each speaker. I had these speakers in Germany, and then we moved to the US and now finally in India. At all of these places, they were placed with respect to my listening position like that. Even for my all Technics set-up before all this (as a student in US), the distances were roughly the same. I think this is the ideal position for the set-ups I have owned.

My Canton speakers do not need any toeing in. Their off-axis performance is great. Is that true for your 805's also? Usually I hear that people recommend a distance of 5ft or so between the speakers, or am I wrong?

My only regret is that I never tried different postioning of my speakers with respect to the walls, even though I have always put them in decent sized rooms (lack of planning and intent, I guess (read laziness)). They were always close to back walls and at least one of them was close to a side wall or another wooden cabinet.

BTW, I recently (while cleaning) found out that they are actually front-ported but the opening is small and has a sort of a grille in front to have escaped my detection before (will never succeed as a detective, I suppose). So the the user manual has it right in calling them bass-reflex speakers (I expressed some doubt about it in my first post of this thread and also once in another thread, I put across a question to cranky, I think).

Hi

I like to toe in my speakers to the sound that my 'ear' feels is right. I generally dont like their off axis performance though they are supposed to be good as the tweeter on top is said to disperse better. In the current room the speakers are 6 ft apart and i have a divan at about 7 ft. The rear wall is a foot from the end of the speaker. In general one should toe in a speaker to a degree that the imaginary lines from each speaker converge about 3 ft behing the listening position.
I have tried everything really as far as positioning goes and the only answer that came up frequently was a bigger/better room but that meant a real re arrange of the entire home.
Luckily for me its just me and my wife and she is really cool with all this madness of mine. As the apartment is now due for a coat of paint i felt it the best time to experiment the various options available. Generally i like the audio/video set ups to be seperate(in diff rooms ) as that way she can watch a DVD while i carry on with my music. This is the down side if i shift the audio rig to the bedroom but it seems worth it as the room is far better. Another advantage is that i can also get the old B&W 804 from my old home and use them which is great news as i love that speaker a fair bit.

Rgds
 
Hi
I like to toe in my speakers to the sound that my 'ear' feels is right.
Rgds


More than any other rule, this is the rule to follow :D If one is experimenting, also try toe in in front of the listening position, toe in depends on numerous factors - from off-axis pattern, to how far from the side wall they are, to the absorption coefficient of the side walls and so on.

cheers
sridhar
 
With speakers being 7 ft apart from each other, they come quit close to the side wall. The distance from side wall would be around 3 ft in most cases - if the width of room is about 13ft. While the listening position would be 3.5 ft from the speaker on that dimension. Would the reflections from side wall become too prominent in this case? Can toeing in be helpful in preventing this reflection?

regards
 
With speakers being 7 ft apart from each other, they come quit close to the side wall. The distance from side wall would be around 3 ft in most cases - if the width of room is about 13ft. While the listening position would be 3.5 ft from the speaker on that dimension. Would the reflections from side wall become too prominent in this case? Can toeing in be helpful in preventing this reflection?

regards

If i get u correctly u are saying u have spread the speakers 7 ft apart in a 13 ft width room so u have about 3 ft from either speaker and side wall?
All this is fine but why are u sitting 3.5 ft away from the speaker? Thats just too close. U should be more than the distance between the speakers (>7ft).

U and the speakers should form an isosceles triangle where the distance between u and each speaker is equal and that is greater than the distance between the two speakers. Some guys prefer an equilateral arrangement where all distances are the same.
Please try this if the space in the room allows as the current positioning is pretty poor.
Rgds
 
10ft from front wall, I meant the other dimension ,parallel to front wall. It is not my sitting position.
I was asking a question if the distance from the wall is 3ft and distance in THAT dimension from speaker is just 3.5 ft, will not the reflections from side wall interfere? And would toe in give better results for any speaker?

My floorstander in drawing room are ~7 ft apart, and are 3.5-4 ft away from side walls. They have a front port and are about 1.5ft away from the front wall. And I sit about 12 ft away from front wall. I have toed them in slightly - I need to, else there would be direct reflctions/ blocking by my other sofas.

regards

If i get u correctly u are saying u have spread the speakers 7 ft apart in a 13 ft width room so u have about 3 ft from either speaker and side wall?
All this is fine but why are u sitting 3.5 ft away from the speaker? Thats just too close. U should be more than the distance between the speakers (>7ft).

U and the speakers should form an isosceles triangle where the distance between u and each speaker is equal and that is greater than the distance between the two speakers. Some guys prefer an equilateral arrangement where all distances are the same.
Please try this if the space in the room allows as the current positioning is pretty poor.
Rgds
 
Asit, what amp did you finally buy ?

Well arj, haven't bought anything yet. In the next two weeks, things will move I suppose. In the meanwhile, trying to get myself organized, getting a new rack made, all teak wood. It got delivered today. Will have to experiment a bit with the footing.
 
Hi everybody,

Here is a report on a little upgrade proving to be quite big.

For the last nearly three years I was keeping my gear on top of a big cabinet housed in our living room. Previously I have had three decent quality racks, but believe it or not, because of lack of space in our 25x15 living area, I had to get rid of the existing last one.

Recently, I again got myself a rack made, completely of teak wood with 5 shelves, all sides open. But we can only keep it at a place (by the side of the main cabinet) which is tremendously asymmetric with respect to the two speakers. Hence my VDH Clearwater speaker cables (2x3 m) fell short for the right speaker at least by one meter.

I was more or less decided on the VDH CS122 cable when Sridhar offered an old cable from TDK which ARN Systems, Bangalore acquired recently. This is a PCOCC pure copper cable where a single crystal of copper can be as long as a few hundred feet and as a result a signal does not have to encounter a few thousand to several hundred crystal boundaries usually occurring in usual copper or even OFC grade copper for about a meter of cable length.

This cable is called TDK Super Accurate Cable CA-QL601 (made in Japan). The cable was most probably made by Hitachi for TDK.

Day before yesterday I got these cables and then in the evening after returning home my son and I decided to put all my gear (except the TT for the moment) on the new rack and try out the new speaker cables with my HK6300 amp and Canton speakers.

For the first half an hour or so, the sound was bit veiled. After that it started opening up. The first thing I noticed was the soundstage which became significantly bigger and wider. If you read my post detailing my Quad pre/power audition, you would know that I found the soundstage of my Nad amp to be much wider than the HK amp (the HK amp is much better than the Nad in every other aspect). That conclusion was obviously drawn with the VDH Clearwater speaker cables. But now with these new TDK PCOCC pure copper speaker cables, my HK amp also produced a huge soundstage.
In addition, unlike a more-or-less 2 dimensional soundstage before (both for HK and Nad amps with the Clearwater), the soundstage now is very very clearly 3 dimensional.

As the times went by, I discovered that the new cable has a very good (macro) dynamic range, much improved from before.

With more time on them, even the micro-dynamics and sound clarity has come to a stage I did not think my 19 year old HK amp was capable of delivering. As a result, even listening at quite low a volume has become a pleasure.

Last night I was listening to a few French composers on an imported CD-set (EMI), and to tell you the truth I was completely bowled over. It was as if I rediscovered my speakers and the amp. The sound was powerfully assertive whenever the need arose, yet very detailed and filled with micro-dynamics, very subtle as well as musical throughout the frequency range.

So far I have put about 7-8 hours on them. According to reports, the sound will keep improving for the first 50 hours or so. It is as if layers of veils are being moved away from the speakers as the hours pass by.

For such a small money (relatively of course), I reckon these speaker cables have brought about a significant upgrade in my system. They are really tremendous VFM, I think.

Oh, I forgot to mention about the bass improvement. According to some reports, the VDH cables (at least the mid-fi range) do not put up a great show in the bass region. In addition, I also thought my HK was a reasonably clean amp, but just a little lean perhaps (as commented in my post describing the quad audition). But with the new cables, it's a full tonality, nothing lean and presence of bass (including mid and deep, remember my speakers go down to 22 Hz) is remarkable. It is also getting tighter with time.

My wife generally does not comment on these things my son and I are passionate about, or (just may be) she quietly enjoys everything but does not want to openly encourage us too much (because that indirectly is an encouragement for more spending). But she had a little session with the "Taal" CD (AR Rahman) yesterday and actually acknowledged the improvement. This is an achievement!

Actually she raised another interesting point with my new amp quite visible (perhaps next week). She wondered if the sound can get any better!
 
Nice ... :) so do they improve the NAD sound as well? Or did they only complement the HK?

Regards
 
I do not know that for sure, gobble, as I am about to sell my nad amp and am about to box pack for good. This week I was very busy at work and in addition all these late nights of listening with the new cables. I do not know I have the energy left to again put the nad amp back this week, because it's quite a few cables and I tend to do things painfully carefully with all checking and rechecking.

But I can say this: I am having a new kind of respect for my very old amp and speakers. It is now proven that this system deserved better cabling than I provided them before. These being pure copper cables (as opposed to silver-coated like my VDH before) are safer bet to try with any combination, I would guess. I would suspect it would extract the best out of many systems, perhaps including a few much higher-end ones.

BTW, this evening I am listening to the Italian composers from the same CD-series. Need I say more!
 
Hi Kamal.

ARN Systems are selling these at Rs. 800 + applicable tax (VAT) per meter without termination (that is without any connectors). They would terminate, I guess, if requested. I got 2x 4.5m bare wire.
Perhaps 4m each would have done it, but I wanted to be on the safe side.

I have heard, in their times, these cables were priced at USD 20 per feet in the US. Perhaps Sridhar can throw a little bit of more light on the history of these cables.

I got my VDH in comparison at Rs 600 per meter (bare wire).
 
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Hi
Thanks for your post Asit, I am glad it worked out. The cables were made by Hitachi for TDK more than a decade ago when TDK was supplying to the professional studio recording companies. This cable indeed went for about $15 to $20 for a ft !! translates to more than Rs 3500/meter price that too many years back. We found these cables at one source only, does not seem to be available anywhere else and bought many spools.

We can terminate on request but terminations will cost more depending on which ones the customer wants :D

cheers
Sridhar
 
HI GUYS,

Asit i will send the IC soon and will definately reach u before the amp:D Am happy u like the speaker cables from ARN.
Try one more experiment if u have the inclination and the time. Buy 4 or 6 sq.mm finolex electrical wire and twist the two conductors gently and use this as a speaker cable. This i have tried with good results and i had got a 90 meter sealed box for Rs 2000/- . If one is inclined one can put the cable in a jacket/sleeve etc.
Work has picked up and hence time on the forum and other extra curricular activities have decreased but i will definately catch up on ur thread from time to time and am also awaiting your first impressions on the amp.
Rgds
 
I had checked out these cables a few weeks back. Asits observations reflect more or less what I too had observed. Good extension in both frequency extremes. No brightness at all (cables to sound detailed without brightness is an achievement). Bass is solid/detailed without any boom. Good focus, soundstage is quite 3 dimensional. Very nice cable.
You need to give some 50 hours for it to open up some more....:)
 
I finally got my new amp. As some of you may have already guessed it, it is a Leben CS300 tube integrated stereo amp. So far I have 4 hours on it.

Initial impressions:

It has retro styling and a killer look. Most of you will fall in love with it the moment you will see it. Sizewise quite small, but height is more than usual. Quite heavy for the size, more than 10 kg.

I must say something about the packing it came in from ARN Systems Bangalore. Very very impressive packing. Box inside box, with all kinds of soft support: sponge, shredded paper and what not. Double waterproofing. It took me and my son at least half an hour to carefully get the actual amp out sitting inside all this.

Once I hooked it up and played from the CD, I was pleasantly suprised by its capability of driving my Canton speakers. For normal recordings, I cannot go much past 10 O'clock position of the volume knob. It's just 12 watts per channel and has 3 taps for choosing impedance of speakers. So far I have tried only the 4 Ohm tap. Based on my experience with my HK amp (which also have similar taps at 4 and 8 Ohms), I may try the other taps as well. I have the feeling, the nominal value of my amp impedance is something like 6 Ohm (something above 4 Ohm) and the min it goes to is 4 Ohms, and that's what Canton quoted 20 years ago.

After about half an hour of warming up, the amp started showing its capabilities. For such a low powered amp, it is incredibly dynamic with a huge soundstage. Another immediate thing I noticed is the tonality of vocals. It is actually a fuller and uninhibited kind of open sound with details and yet very musical. BTW, out of the box the bass was very reasonable. It has a button for bass boost: 0 db, 3 db and 5 db. But so far I have not needed it.

I would say the amp has a lot of good qualities of a SS amp and puts in its tube magic. I also have the feeling it will drive almost any decent speakers. I know, before sending Sridhar tried it with the Usher mini-dancers with 85 db sensitivity and the amp was driving them effortlessly at 9:30 O'clock position. I learnt that Square-Wave was also present there for some time, so he can also comment on it.

We have to keep in mind that my very old HK amp is a very very decent amp and I am sure it will beat many of the modern integrated amp champs (I say this with full confidence). To be able to top it out of the box in several aspects (tonality, separation, soundstage etc) is not a mean thing. The amp of course will improve over the period of the next 30-50 hours.

I have run the amp only with the CDP so far. I have so far used two ICs: a VDH D102MKIII (a gift from dinyaar) and an Audio Art IC-3, sent by ARN along with the amp. Both are silver-coated copper I believe. I'll post more details on the ICs as they break in more and more.

Do you people think I should start a new thread for this amp? Or should I continue with this thread?
 
Congradulations Asit! This one is a real beauty.

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Very nice. Enjoy!
 
Asit,

Looks great! Congrats and enjoy. Do post more reviews and impressions about it and yeah do continue in this very thread instead of starting a new one. Better to keep all information including the conclusion part of it in one location IMHO.
 
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