Amp upgrade with Canton speakers: Feasibility study

[arj]

I finally got my new amp. As some of you may have already guessed it, it is a Leben CS300 tube integrated stereo amp. So far I have 4 hours on it.

Wise choice !!:clapping:
In the future, if ever the upgrade bug bites, before you look at replacing cables, you should look at replacing the output tubes as the impact may be much more. At least in my CS600 I found the sovtek tubes to be hard and bright,while found a great tube in SED WingedC... but mine are 6L6GC while yours are EL84s so this may differ and i am a tube Newbie

Although I have no idea on Sovtek EL34s but Harma , Mullard etc have some excellent products. But again as long as you are happy with the Sovteks there is nothing to worry about as sound is so very subjective.

BTW keep this thread..it gives the history of your choice and way forward

My congrats again

 

[thevortex]

Congratulations Asit on your purchase! And I hope you have hours and hours of pleasurable listening on your setup - without the upgrade bug itching you

 

[Asit]

Hi unleash, thanks for posting the pictures. Look really great! Doesn't it? Sounds even better.

Hi anm, I could not compare this with Lyrita because I have never heard a Lyrita. I am interested in a Lyrita phono stage though. I am nearly broke right now. I have to gather my breadth to think about new purchases. I obviously got the 230V European version and it goes at around 2300 Euros. ARN price is 1.5 L + taxes. Yes, very very expensive by my standards. Thanks to the 6th pay commission and the arrear payments, I could afford it.

However, when I compare it to Cayin A-88T (around 1 lakh) and the Cadence VA-1 (1.1L), I would say it's very justified. The amp is currently in the initial phase of breaking in, but already I would not compare it with either of those amps. This one is way way better.

I would give you an example. A long time ago (early 90s), I bought a Western classical CD ("Horowitz plays Chopin, Vol1). Although I really really like my old HK amp, somehow it could not do justice to this CD. It was left more or less unused all these years. This morning immediately after getting up I turned on my system for it to get properly warmed up, and then I tried that CD. Oh, unbelievable pleasure. The tonality of the piano, the attack of the notes, the tunefulness, and then the decay, everything was remarkable.

I do not know if it's true, I have read on the net that the designer and maker of Leben, Mr. Taku Hyodo (considered as one of the top 8 hifi designers in Japan) was accused of selling his amps at too cheap a price. You can imagine prices of Shindo and such amps. The Lebens are all hand made, no circuit boards or anything, all point to point cabling and in-house-built transformers and switches. I am told that most of the success of a tube amp lies in the quality of the transformers. As you can probably make out from the pictures posted by unleash, the build quality appears to be superb. Time will tell.

Moser, thanks for the encouraging words. Okay, I'll keep this thread alive, at least till everything gets broken in and things settle.

 

[anm]

so, is the hk on sale?

 

[odyssey]

The Mullards and the Genelex GLs are a great choice among the EL84. Both are expensive though, thankfully, matched quads are not needed. The Sovtek EL84s are pretty good, ofcourse there is always that - how much better can it get

cheers

Wise choice !!:clapping:
In the future, if ever the upgrade bug bites, before you look at replacing cables, you should look at replacing the output tubes as the impact may be much more. At least in my CS600 I found the sovtek tubes to be hard and bright,while found a great tube in SED WingedC... but mine are 6L6GC while yours are EL84s so this may differ and i am a tube Newbie

Although I have no idea on Sovtek EL34s but Harma , Mullard etc have some excellent products. But again as long as you are happy with the Sovteks there is nothing to worry about as sound is so very subjective.

BTW keep this thread..it gives the history of your choice and way forward

My congrats again

 

[Asit]

Hi vortex, if history is any indication, the upgrade bug will hit me a really really long time after. Hope the amp survives that long, and I remain well and kicking then.

Arj, thanks for your kind encouragement throughout this thread. Actually on page 6 of this long thread, you will see that (after a bit of persuation by square_wave to look at tubes also) in post 56 I am for the first time enquiring about a tube amp, and that was Leben CS300. Nobody suggested this to me. Actually if a few days before that time if anybody asked me what is a Leben, I would have said it's German for "life".

I actually looked at the net for tube amps and kept on reading many many forum discussions. The Leben somehow stuck in my head for many reasons, first the users' reports as well as experts reviews were ecstatic, and a ballpark price which was outside my budget but still was tempting. I have collected all those links I have read on the net. They are too many to post, but very interesting reading.

At that point, of course I did not know you had a Leben (the bigger brother of CS300) and ARN sells them.

Well, regarding your suggestion of tube rolling, I would not do anything now. I'll just sit back and enjoy the music for the moment. Once things settle down, I may think about those things at a much later stage. However, unlike CS300XS and the CS600 (which you have), the reports on the CS300 is very very good with the stock tubes. You shall find a lot of discussion on the CS300 in many Czeck and Polish forums as well as many other places. I even have test plots on the CS300 from one such East European reviews. Because of Google translations, many of those reviews are somewhat understandable. Actually from all those, I did make a list of about 20 low sensitivity speakers which have been driven easily by the CS300 or the CS300XS. Since I had to get such an expensive amp without any auditioning, I had to work very hard to get the facts right.

Sridhar, thanks for all the help and also for bearing with all my queries and restlessness.

Anm, the HK is not on sale. Firstly it is too old and although it has been serviced by a very experienced man in Kolkata (by the name of Mr. Rajesh Tanna, who especially does repairing and servicing of all these very old HK amps. BTW he thinks very lowly of many modern amps.), I cannot be sure how long it will run. As a result I cannot ask for any reasonable price and that would not be worth the trouble of selling. In addition, it has too many emotions attached to it. We bought it when we moved from US to Germany right after my marriage and then our son was born and grew up listening to it. This amp (HK) has almost become a member of the family. Actually my wife came back from office last evening after my son and I were about to set the Leben on the shelf designated for the amp, immediately she asked, "Where is the Harman Kardon?"

 

[arj]

ofcourse there is always that - how much better can it get

cheers

True..it can only get as good as ones wallet can afford them to be

 

[odyssey]

Sridhar, thanks for all the help and also for bearing with all my queries and restlessness.

You are very welcome, I am glad it you liked it and its working well with your speakers. Thanks to you, we have learnt a lot regarding paperwork/formalities for shipping to West Bengal (with the new procedures) hyeah:

cheers

 

[psychotropic]

I read all these threads and I thrill at the prospect of some day having enough money to be even thinking about hi-fi components like this. It must be a heady feeling

 

[thevortex]

I read all these threads and I thrill at the prospect of some day having enough money to be even thinking about hi-fi components like this. It must be a heady feeling

Copy that! Although I have just ventured into a proper stereo system with an integrated receiver, I wonder what a tube amplifier could do! Well, thats the reason this hobby is a never ending quest.

 

[moserw]

I read all these threads and I thrill at the prospect of some day having enough money to be even thinking about hi-fi components like this. It must be a heady feeling

Ha ha. My prayer for you bro is that you have the most expensive Audiophile PC ever made, even custom made especially for you...

 

[square_wave]

Wow ! Sorry I caught this thread so late
Congratulations Asit. You have a great amplifier in your hands
I have heard this amplifier once and really liked it. It stands out of the way and makes music. Blissful music, great tone and just the right amount of detail

And yes it was driving the mini dancer (85db) to astonishing levels at around 10 o clock position.

 

[arj]

Well, regarding your suggestion of tube rolling, I would not do anything now. I'll just sit back and enjoy the music for the moment. Once things settle down, I may think about those things at a much later stage.

A very wise decision..no need to roll unless there is a need for it !
I just wanted to bring out my experience of the priority of impact ie tubes over cables.The Leben CS300 is supposed to be the original amp. The CS600 is a CS300 with more power although many folks consider CS300 to be better.

 

[Asit]

Hi Psychotropic and Vortex,

Many of my colleagues have invested the money from the salary-arrears (6th pay commission) for their future. I have the luxury that my wife also works and I invested the money into music, that should keep me healthy. I do not have any expensive habits and do not spend on expensive clothes or other things. I have had a very low middle class upbringing in a family that valued only education and music and nothing else. At the age of 50, after all the hard work all my life, I feel I deserve this amp.

My very old HK amp is almost as old as some of you. There is plenty of time in the lives of our younger members to have plenty of meaningful upgrades, I am sure. However, music should always come first.

Hi Arj,

Thanks for your generous words on the CS300. I know some people have found the CS300 better than the bigger brothers. It is hard for me to believe though. BTW, am I the only owner of the Leben CS300 in India? Do you know of any other Leben owners in India?

However, I must say that the drive of this little amp has really surprised me. Another thing that has really surprised me is the big sound it produces. The fullness of the sound really is like a big muscle amp. All the other things I expected: tonality, clarity, detail, micro-dynamics, musical involvement, soundstage etc etc. Apart from the feature of a big soundstage mentioned above, the other features are rather subtle, really does not need a big amp for those. But the huge drive and the big full sound is really really surprising. If I did not know the actual rms wattage and heard the amp, I would have thought it's a 100 wpc amp at least.

 

[moserw]

There is plenty of time in the lives of our younger members to have plenty of meaningful upgrades, I am sure. However, music should always come first.

Well said!

 

[dinyaar]

Hi Asit,
Congratulations on the new amp. Hope its all u expected and some more.
Looks wonderful and am sure has performance to match.

Rgds

 

[soundsgreat]

Hi,

Asit Let take this opportunity to Congratulate on this fine Amp that you've just purchased :clapping:! and please forgive for not participating in this thread earlier,I purposefully kept away for some reasons !

I myself have heard this Amp with Usher CDP and BE718,Mini Dancers and the Big brother BE10 !

Needless to say it even drove the Big Fat BE10 to a great extent (considering the Limitations ) and I still recall the sound ! The Leben is certainly a fine sounding Amp with enough punch to knock hyeah: !! Very Very sweet sounding and very very open and strain less !!

I was to take My DIY Towers to pair it with this,but unfortunate for me it was already sold :sad: ! but anyways have made alternative arrangements !

Anyways Have a Blast with this and do post your impressions once its burnt in properly !

BTW, am I the only owner of the Leben CS300 in India? Do you know of any other Leben owners in India?

Asit,Arj Himself owns one hyeah: !! and if Am not wrong there are couple of more guys here in the forum and obviously the guy (A Doctor Am led to believe) who bought the Amp which I was to audition with my Towers !!

Regards.

 

[Kamal]

Asit, hearty congrats on your new amp.
You have spent a lot of time & effort in research/getting opinions & finally purchasing what you wanted-I wish you the joy of your efforts.
I hope the younger members will take a tip from your labours & spend time in researching, audtioning & exchanging opinions with experienced people before finalising their purchase as well.Its time well spent.
Yes indeed, after so many years of hard work, you fully deserve something that will give you pleasure for a long time.

 

[arj]

However, I must say that the drive of this little amp has really surprised me. Another thing that has really surprised me is the big sound it produces. The fullness of the sound really is like a big muscle amp. All the other things I expected: tonality, clarity, detail, micro-dynamics, musical involvement, soundstage etc etc. Apart from the feature of a big soundstage mentioned above, the other features are rather subtle, really does not need a big amp for those. But the huge drive and the big full sound is really really surprising. If I did not know the actual rms wattage and heard the amp, I would have thought it's a 100 wpc amp at least.

I know exactly what you are saying as my first few hours with the amp was pure magic. in terms of details/tonality and most surprisingly the strong bass slam ! i used to use a Sub before and now I dont need it

regarding the soundstage it is the width and the depth...i had thought the CS300 was enough for me as well but knowing it is a BIG investment just wanted to futureproof just in case I moved to a Larger Room or Larger Speaker I went for the CS600.. and the merlins are not exactly SET friendly needing at least 15-20W.

 

[Asit]

Hi square_wave,

By your absence, I was thinking may be you did not like it as much when you heard it for a short time. The amp is opening up gradually with each session. You get my special thanks (and ROC also) for drawing my attention to tubes. Although I was reluctant initially, I opened up to the idea and did audition two tube amps: the Cayin A-88T and the Cadence VA-1, didn't I?


Hi Dinyaar,

You have always been a big encouragement for all my quests, be it the CDP or the amp or the cables. There are very few people who would take the trouble of buying connectors, mounting the cables onto the connectors and then carefully pack and then send by courier, all this for no profit and for someone whom you have never seen.


Hi Soundsgreat,

Even though you did not actively participate in this forum before, your indirect presence was here. Please go to page 35 and post #343 and there you will see that I have used your formula given in some other thread to calculate the required power for a certain db (with a certain headroom) and at a certain distance. I even prepared a table using the formula.

Yes, I already knew Arj owns a Leben CS600 and he has really helped me with answers to all my questions. I meant people other than Arj and me. Now you are saying some doctor in Bangalore owns a Leben too, which model?


Hi Kamal,

Thanks for the compliments on the work done in this thread. Of course, some of the discussions are model specific, but at least 50% or more of the discussion is general and aims at understanding amplifiers in general and related issues. It was actually my purpose to create a thread where not just me but many people can benefit from. I actually have to thank all people who have contributed to this thread with knowledge, experience, views.

In another thread (initiated by somebody else, can't remember off-hand), I have tried to do a similar thing on the subject of distortions of speakers and with the help of technical people like Cranky got some grasp of the subject.


Hi Arj,

Just in case my speakers are indeed low sensitivity, I wanted to find out any use of low/mid-sensitivity speakers with such low-powered amps (both in reviews and user-forums across the world). To my surprise, I found out several low SPL speakers being happily used with the CS300.

Here goes an incomplete list (because there are actually more) of not-too-efficient speakers as reported on the net (most cases I have also included the source on the net) that have been driven very well by the Leben CS300 (12 wpc) / CS300X (15 wpc) / CS300XS (15 wpc):


1) Dynaudio Contour 1.1 (86 db, 4 Ohm)
(in the Czeck review www.hifinazory.cz:forum:viewtopic.php?f=10&t=866)

2) Harbeth Compact 7e-2 (86db)
To quote:
"I'm not sure i'd call myself an audiophile, i only have mid priced stuff. I use a Leben 12-watt vacuum tube amp (cs-300), and an Arcam cd-33t with my Harbeth compact 7-es2's. I sit close - about 1 and a half metres away. I can't turn the amp up past 11 o clock, or the police will visit (This is Japan!) . Anyway, It sounds superb. I previously had an older (Quad), more powerful amp, but it sounds feeble in comparison. I imagine this power would be quite sufficient in any small/mid sized room, though i guess things might start to deteriorate at a certain point in a largish room. I can't imagine why much more power would be needed in a relatively small space. The whole set up sounds very convincing and bold to me. I've got repetitive strain injury in my feet from too much tapping." by member "holden" in thread "How little power do I need for my Harbeths?" in a Harbeth user forum.

3) Harbeth Super HL5 (86 db, 8 Ohm)

4) Totem Arro (87 db, 4 Ohm)
(Look at the post by "Jasonics" in ClubSNAP Audiophiles thread - ClubSNAP Photography Forums )
(See also Singapore International Sound & Sight Exhibition 2007 Electronic Show Report and Audiophile Coverage by Enjoy the Music.com )

5) Sonus Faber EA-2 (86 db)
(see post #8 at Enough Valve power 10w into 86db Speakers - 2 Channel Debate - All things HiFI and AV - HiFi WigWam - HiFi Forum)

6) DIY Breitbander (85 db) in the LP magazine review

7) Harpia Acoustics (84 db) (in the High Fidelity Polish review)

8) Roksan FR5 (87db, 4 Ohm)

9) Proac Tablette (86 db, 8 Ohms) (in Italian videohifi.com) (for the 300X version)

10) Quad ESL 988 (86 db, 8 Ohm) (used in the swedish review of bildochljud.se)

11) Quad ESL 989 (86 db, 8 Ohm)
(Swedish forum Leben CS300 - Euphonia Audioforum )

12) Totem Model 1 Signature (87 db, 4 Ohm) (found in the same euphonia-audioforum above)

13) Totem Dreamcatcher (87.5 db, 4 Ohm)
(see posts 22 - 26 in Leben cs300 vs Audio Note oto se? - Page 2 - pink fish media )

14) Sonus Faber Guarneri (86.5 db. 6 Ohm)
(see post #53 in Best Valve Amp Between 2000 - 5000? - Page 4 - pink fish media)

15) ProAc Response 1 SC (86 db, 8 Ohm)
(see post#24 in Best Valve Amp Between 2000 - 5000? - Page 2 - pink fish media)

16) Devore Gibbon 3S (86 db,8 Ohm)
(see Devore Fidelity Gibbon 3s Loudspeaker Review at On Speakers)

17) Spendor S5e (87db, 8 Ohm, Min 4.4 Ohm)
(see 6moons.com - letters & feedback)