Garrard 301 takes off

[stevieboy]

Garrard 301 Stainless Steel Spring Set | eBay

Compared to these new springs mine are stretched to hell and back! Am a little wary of tweaking the spring Hiten and then having it pop out suddenly during play... Will take a looksee when I get time after Christmas and see what I can do... Lovely pics! My 301s gonna be that clean sometime next year...

 

[Hiten]

Lovely pics! My 301s gonna be that clean sometime next year...

Yes they were from audio grail guys. I hope they wont mind there pics were used for guidance. Audio grail guys are Superb restorers, there recent 301 was sold for Rs. 80,000/- on ebay.
Regards

 

[Rajiv]

Hi,

With the platter removed I can see that the idler wheel is not touching the pulley exactly, there's a slight gap. Two springs are attached to the idler mechanism. One of them I think gets into play when the idler moves from idle (disengaged from pulley) to active state (engaging the pulley). This spring is quite stretched hence my suspicion that its not letting the idler establish proper contact. At 45 and 78 however the idler touches the pulley perfectly, cos those steps are bigger in diameter. These two speeds come up to speed faster.

Steven this is quite normal. All the 301's I have seen are like this. To reconfirm I asked on another vintage forum and they confirm that this is normal.

Without the platter,at 33 RPM setting the idler is not in contact with the motor stepped pulley.The idler is pushed in to contact with the motor shaft by the inner rim of the platter. As long as the speed is correct nothing to worry about.

What is the position of the speed control knob on your 301 for the correct speed?

Does he take out the rivets do a complete clean and re rivet?

No need for such invasive work as long as the motor is silent.Just oil.

A rubber band should do the trick.

Tried it on the Lenco.Works like a charm.

Regards
Rajiv

 

[stevieboy]

Hi Rajiv,

Thanks a ton for that clarification. Well it takes about half an hour to get to speed at 33, its spot on almost from start at 45 and at 78 again it takes a while to get to speed. Was figuring half an hour is too long. At speed at 33, the speed knob is close to the halfway mark, pointing down, a little to the left. The first time I switched it on it took long, the second time a little less. Then did not switch it on at all till yesterday cos I haven't oiled the bottom part of the motor yet. I'm guessing a little sanding of the idler wheel with some sandpaper will help a bit?

The three suspects I have lined up for the slow speed up are the idler springs, the idler wheel surface, the motor cleaning and will need to recheck that the pulley is not oily. What do you think?

There's prob no need but I'm itching to strip something and do some cleaning and riveting which is very unusual for a lazy bum like me... Guess I just love the little bugger

 

[Rajiv]

Hi,

Well it takes about half an hour to get to speed at 33,

That is long.

The first time I switched it on it took long, the second time a little less.

That explains it.Being idle for a long time it took time for the moving parts to free up.

I suggest that you first strip,clean and oil the main bearing.Then oil the motor and idler bearings and all linkages.

The three suspects I have lined up for the slow speed up are the idler springs, the idler wheel surface, the motor cleaning and will need to recheck that the pulley is not oily. What do you think?

Try the idler spring at the second hole on the plate and see if gives more tension,or as has been suggested snip of a couple of loops on the spring .Don't sweat it its just a spring.

To clean the idler soak it in warm water for a few minutes and use a Scotch Brite pad(the little green pads that are used to cleal dishes) and run it around the idler wheel.Carefully not to much force.

Fix the idler back and with the TT at 78 RPM use hold a very fine sand paper on the idler.Very very gently,you dont want to take off rubber,just to get the surface a little dull not shiny.

Wipe down the idler pulley and use IPA to clean the pulley.Also clean the inside of the platter where the idler runs.

Another thing I have found is that by removing the transit clamp assembly motor vibration,noise is reduced.Also the power supply wiring must be free,see that it is not pulling the motor.There is a clamp that the wire passes through that is fixed to the bottom cover of the motor . Sometimes the wire is pulled tight and this causes noise and vibration in the motor.

Regards
Rajiv

 

[stevieboy]

Thanks Rajiv,

My main bearing you mean the spindle bearing right? The motor bearing clean up generally works and it worked for Bhaskarcan recently so I guess that's gonna turn out to be the culprit... Let's see!

I had a half hour of heart stopping drama last night when I removed the idler wheel just for fun to see underneath. When going to put the screw back, it slipped out of my fingers and dropped on the eddy current disc. I thought it went through the hole and into the motor even though there's no real hole... upturned the table and no screw falling out! I had one screw removed from the pulley, ready to dismantle the whole thing and then saw the errant screw stuck for dear life to the magnetic horse shoe brake. Man. Thats enough for me. Only gonna touch it now when I really have the time to spend on it. Gonna wash the linkages too. They're quite dirty and it should remove the cadmium stuff also to some extent I guess.

The transit clamp, one screw is kinda sticking I guess some oiling there also needs to be done. Was debating whether to remove it, guess I'll go your way and remove it also. Some guys also support the motor on some footers so vibration is reduced. Might try that also.

All in all, good fun!

Regards

Edit: Also as per initial exploration, in order to access the idler retracting spring (the one on top), it seems I'll have to take out the speed cage from below cos the spring ends somewhere in side it. Would that be right or is there any other way of accessing the other end of the spring?

Edit: What confuses me is, if the motor is to blame, why does 45 come up to speed almost instantly while 33 and 78 take a while?

 

[Hiten]

Edit: What confuses me is, if the motor is to blame, why does 45 come up to speed almost instantly while 33 and 78 take a while?

Thats because if you have modified the spring it is too low tension for 33 and too much for 78.

which is very unusual for a lazy bum like me...

laziness is just taking rest before doing some work. :lol:
There is a reason why I have used Beetle Bailey as avatar

 

[stevieboy]

Not sure if that's what's happening Hiten cos if it's too slow for 33 ok at 45 then at 78 it should run faster no? Yet it runs slow at 78 and plays catch up then. Have not modified anything yet.

Now I know the reason behind that avatar hehe

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bhaskarcan]

Hi Steve,

Since you're planning to rejuvanate Gerald, thought this will be of some help.

Now buy your deoxit d5 in India.

When I was working on my 301, couldn't get hold of this. Had little discussion with Hiten, Quad, Anil in my AU-719 thread. Good for cleaning the switch section & inside of the motor. If your opening up the motor for cleaning just keep in mind soaking of the lower "sintered bronze" bearing with sewing machine oil. Once done properly you may not have to do it again in your lifetime.

And of course, the way you've carried out the SME rewire, Gerald will be more than happy to have some healing touch from you.

All the best to you & Gerald,

Brgds,

Bhaskar

 

[bhaskarcan]

Hi,

Steven this is quite normal. All the 301's I have seen are like this. To reconfirm I asked on another vintage forum and they confirm that this is normal.

Without the platter,at 33 RPM setting the idler is not in contact with the motor stepped pulley.The idler is pushed in to contact with the motor shaft by the inner rim of the platter. As long as the speed is correct nothing to worry about.

No need for such invasive work as long as the motor is silent.Just oil.

Rajiv

+1 on all of above.

Bhaskar

 

[stevieboy]

Thanks Bhaskar,

There's a local guy mr murthy who runs a tools shop and is involved in audio too. Might be able to get the deoxit from him... Am kinda aiming to do as pro a job as I can, that's why I put off doing the garrard for two years. Considering completely removing the current oil and seeing if a good oil makes a difference. I'll never know till I try it, is my thinking for the moment. Will decide when I get down to it... been reading up and watching youtube videos on copper riveting today hehe. The sme rewire was just an urge to see how it worked and came together as a whole and kinda getting the same urge with the 301 to just take it apart and see what makes it tick

Regards


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Hiten]

When I was working on my 301, couldn't get hold of this. Had little discussion with Hiten, Quad, Anil in my AU-719 thread.
Bhaskar

Yes I agree. But I also agree as quad suggested about cleaning rotary switches with IPA it cleans and does not leave residue. I don't know inards of 301 motor, but with deoxit I would suggest to be extra careful as it is a spray it might spray on to motor windings etc.

 

[bhaskarcan]

Yes I agree. But I also agree as quad suggested about cleaning rotary switches with IPA it cleans and does not leave residue. I don't know inards of 301 motor, but with deoxit I would suggest to be extra careful as it is a spray it might spray on to motor windings etc.

Hiten I used WD-40 for cleaning the inside of the motor, and the body of the table was electrified. It was giving slight shock. Then I consulted our electrician who also works with all kind of motors. He told me not to worry as this is common with WD-40. Once it dries everything will be ok. And it was.

The problem I found with IPA is getting 100% pure. Everything normally available in the market has got some content of water, hence I'm not very keen in using it any electronics item. I have never used Deoxit, but what I read in other forums that it leaves no or very very less residue, and this is the property I'm looking for. There are plenty of contact cleaners available in market like CRC(also imported). But they don't have a proper review. That is where Deoxit scores over others, it has got solid +ive review. And IMO it should work better than WD-40(BTW G401Fan also used WD-40 for cleaning the inside). And believe me Garrard 301 motor is built like a tank. I've never seen such a massive & sturdy motor in any turntable. It's really difficult for the mere mortals like us to really screw it( well it survived my operation:lol.

Brgds,

Bhaskar

 

[stevieboy]

Yes I agree. But I also agree as quad suggested about cleaning rotary switches with IPA it cleans and does not leave residue. I don't know inards of 301 motor, but with deoxit I would suggest to be extra careful as it is a spray it might spray on to motor windings etc.

Hi Hiten,

Would not touch the motor windings. Basically the Garrard motor has a top part and a bottom part. The windings would be in the top part and the bottom part contains the bearing. This lower half is what needs the spraying to loosen the gunk. At least that's what I've gathered so far...

Regards

 

[bhaskarcan]

Hi Hiten,

The windings would be in the top part and the bottom part contains the bearing. This lower half is what needs the spraying to loosen the gunk. At least that's what I've gathered so far...

Regards

+1 on that

 

[G401fan]

Hi,

Some suggestions, in case you haven't tried them yet:

1. For an old 301 (well, they all are ), it's worthwhile to clean and re-oil the main bearing, by removing the two screws below, and sliding the entire assembly out. Using something like WD40, you could clean the bearing shaft, and its sleeve, and the base before reassembly. Reassemble after the WD40 has dried out, and you've coated the shaft and the sleeve with a bit of oil. After assembly, re-oil from above.

2. If the motor is smooth, and not making any noise, don't bother to open it, as it's a pain to carry out. Just oil it from above, as described in the manual.

3. Clean out all the moving parts like the switches and lever joints with WD40 to remove old residue. The Switches need to be lubricated with a few drops of Singer machine oil, while the lever joints need a light application of grease.

4. A drop of oil on the idler wheel bearing.

5. Remove (as suggested by Rajiv) the two screws used for locking the motor in transit. You'll need them again only if you move a great distance away.

The idler wheel needs to engage with the motor spindle when the motor is turned on, at all 3 speeds, even if the platter is removed. I'm not sure about the impact of the platter rim in making contact. My two TTs both keep the idler spinning at all speeds, even with the platter off. The spring seems to be the only culprit as of now, but there just might be an improvement after you lubricate the switches and lever assemblies.

with regards,

 

[bhaskarcan]

Hi,

Some suggestions, in case you haven't tried them yet:

1. For an old 301 (well, they all are ), it's worthwhile to clean and re-oil the main bearing, by removing the two screws below, and sliding the entire assembly out. Using something like WD40, you could clean the bearing shaft, and its sleeve, and the base before reassembly. Reassemble after the WD40 has dried out, and you've coated the shaft and the sleeve with a bit of oil. After assembly, re-oil from above.

2. If the motor is smooth, and not making any noise, don't bother to open it, as it's a pain to carry out. Just oil it from above, as described in the manual.

3. Clean out all the moving parts like the switches and lever joints with WD40 to remove old residue. The Switches need to be lubricated with a few drops of Singer machine oil, while the lever joints need a light application of grease.

4. A drop of oil on the idler wheel bearing.

5. Remove (as suggested by Rajiv) the two screws used for locking the motor in transit. You'll need them again only if you move a great distance away.

The idler wheel needs to engage with the motor spindle when the motor is turned on, at all 3 speeds, even if the platter is removed. I'm not sure about the impact of the platter rim in making contact. My two TTs both keep the idler spinning at all speeds, even with the platter off. The spring seems to be the only culprit as of now, but there just might be an improvement after you lubricate the switches and lever assemblies.

with regards,

Hi G401fan,

Thanks for your adv. Just one clarification about the main bearing since I've never dismantled it. Is it that removing the two bottom screws makes it free to slide up? Mine 301 main bearing keeps leaking very slightly frm the bottom(no dropping). But I'm not willing to disturb the perfect running setup, so sometime replenish frm above. But if it's as simple as just removing two screws,I can give it a try & also check the cause of the leakage.

When platter removed my idler also doesn't touch the spindle, but till now I don't have any speed issue.

Brgds,

Bhaskar

 

[G401fan]

Hi Bhaskarcan,

When you remove the two screws, the lower cover and the bearing base assembly - a plastic receptacle and a convex brass contact disk - are to be kept aside. Then, you push the bearing shaft/spindle downwards to remove it entirely. You'll then be able to see signs of wear, if any, and traces of old congealed oil, both on the shaft itself and on the bearing base. It's a close fit, as it should be, given the tolerances required for any high quality turntable bearing. Re-fitting is reversing the process. Oil leakage can be checked by putting a gasket in place just above the base plate - you could cut a piece of plastic in the shape of the plate, with a center hole, before tightening the screws.

If you're feeling adventurous, you could try changing the bearing base, with one from Kokomo guys:

Analog Tube Audio | Garrard 301-401 Tweaks

Incidentally, the idler wheel will be separate from the motor pulley when you remove the platter. However, it should engage on you turn the start lever to the 'ON' position.

regards,

 

[bhaskarcan]

Hi G401fan,

Till now there is absolutely no reason for tweaking the 301(apart frm the motor noise thing). Hence just trying to keep as it is with minimum maintenance/upgradation possible.

Brgds

Bhaskar

 

[stevieboy]

If you're feeling adventurous, you could try changing the bearing base, with one from Kokomo guys:

Analog Tube Audio | Garrard 301-401 Tweaks

Incidentally, the idler wheel will be separate from the motor pulley when you remove the platter. However, it should engage on you turn the start lever to the 'ON' position.

regards,

Thanks G401fan,

That list is pretty much what I had in mind. Add to that linkage cleaning with soapy warm water first and then WD40.

What grease did you use? I read about the grease but was thinking of doing an oiling but now that you mention it and I actually think of it, grease would be a longer lasting lubricant. Assuming a typical motor oil shop would stock grease...?

The Kokomo kit used to leave an indentation on the spindle. There was a thread about it on pinkfish. It was pointed out to me by mathew of audiograil. Now however they changed their bearing to a 'hydraulic' one, without the ceramic ball bearing. There's also another guy on ebay exact audio who sells a pack of three balls which are supposed to wear off and are made softer than the spindle to protect it. Whether it works as intended...

The idler wheel does not rotate when switched on, if my memory is right, will double check it tonight.

Regards