Pick it MC-1H Cartridge

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Hi Friends,
I have recently changed my 2M red cart on Project 1 Xpression III to high out put moving coil Pick it MC-1H that is supplied by Project, build with Ortofon help. The problem i am facing now is.
1. There are no technical specifications of the cart available anywhere on net. I had mailed the company with no response from them.
2. I am using a Lyrita phono stage and Lyrita 6C33C set amp. The volume was good with the dial at 9 oclock position with 2M cart, but now i have to dial it beyond 12 oclock to get equivalent out-put.
3. The MC-1H carts sounds more detailed, focused and neutral than the 2M cart but feel that the system is holding back in terms of opening up the sound stage.

I get a feeling that the cart and Phono are not complimenting well with each other.
Would love to have feedback and suggestion for my problem.
Regards
Abhijit
 
Hi Friends,
I have recently changed my 2M red cart on Project 1 Xpression III to high out put moving coil Pick it MC-1H that is supplied by Project, build with Ortofon help. The problem i am facing now is.
1. There are no technical specifications of the cart available anywhere on net. I had mailed the company with no response from them.
2. I am using a Lyrita phono stage and Lyrita 6C33C set amp. The volume was good with the dial at 9 oclock position with 2M cart, but now i have to dial it beyond 12 oclock to get equivalent out-put.
3. The MC-1H carts sounds more detailed, focused and neutral than the 2M cart but feel that the system is holding back in terms of opening up the sound stage.

I get a feeling that the cart and Phono are not complimenting well with each other.
Would love to have feedback and suggestion for my problem.
Regards
Abhijit
Hi Abhijit,
Does this phonoamp support MC?
This is HOMC so it can be connected to MM input.
Regards,
Sachin
 
Last edited:
Hi sachin it dosnt support LOMC . the cart is HOMC, ur right. But still the output dosnt match that with 2M red. The recommended loading is 47 kohms . Was wondering would it still require a stepup transformer to get the desired output and performance.
Abhijit
 
Hi sachin it dosnt support LOMC . the cart is HOMC, ur right. But still the output dosnt match that with 2M red. The recommended loading is 47 kohms . Was wondering would it still require a stepup transformer to get the desired output and performance.
Abhijit

It is lacking in gain IMO,actually it should work well with HOMC.I don't know this preamp so can't comment.A MC stepup transformer may be needed with this.You can also try CNC from tek as you are in Mumbai.

Regards,
Sachin
 
Hi Abhijit,

The specs
High Output MC cartridge
Frequency range 20-22.000Hz Channel separation 23dB/1kHz Output voltage 2,2mV Recommended load resistance 47kohms/amplifier connection MM-input Compliance/stylus type 12m/mN elliptical Recommended tracking force 25mN Weight 10g

It should work with the Lyrita. If you're using 5751 tubes, try switching to 12AX7 tubes with 30% more output. A telefunken smooth plate would also take the performance to another level altogether. :) I have no problems with volume with my previous HOMC.

Regards

Edit: check with Mohammed of BE3 amplifiers in bombay itself for some affordable 12AX7 tubes
 
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Hi stevieboy thanks a ton for the info. DIdnt understand what do you mean by telefunken smooth plate. can you please elaborate.
Thanks again
Regards
Abhijit
 
Hi Stevieboy my phono uses 6N2P tubes. were you mentioning of replacing them with 12AX7 tubes? Forgive me for my ignorance and basic question but have a very limited knowledge of electronics.
Abhijit
 
High output MCs are designed to be playable on MM phonos (in terms of amount of amplification which is anywhere from 40 to 47 dB and impedance loading which is typically 47 kilo ohms), but in practice their output is not as high as MMs (say >4.5 mV). Hence your having to crank up to 12 O'Clock (versus 9 O'Clock on your 2M) for the same sound pressure level seems logical. You need to use higher gain to get same sound level.

But as per Stevieboy's data, MC-1H seems to be a low compliance cartridge and may not be best suited for your current tonearm. Lower compliance needs tonearm of heavier mass.
 
Hi Stevieboy my phono uses 6N2P tubes. were you mentioning of replacing them with 12AX7 tubes? Forgive me for my ignorance and basic question but have a very limited knowledge of electronics.
Abhijit

Hi Abhijit,

Viren makes two circuits. The old one was made for 5751 tubes which one can replace with 12ax7 / ecc83 tubes. That's the one I have. His newer circuit uses the 6np tubes which you have. So you might have to speak to him and prob send the phonostage back to him if you want to convert the circuit to use 12ax7 tubes. Or ask him if there's a switch that allows you to select the tube of your choice. The advantage of the 12ax7 tubes is that you can buy some really good tubes on ebay. You'd have to do some reading up on 12ax7s but it's not complicated. These are old stock tubes and don't come with any guarantee also expensive hence viren does not use them as stock in his phono. The telefunken is a brand that used to be made in Germany. They come in ribbed and smooth plate. The smooth plate supposedly sounds much better. Very neutral big bass good treble good midrange.

Regards


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
High output MCs are designed to be playable on MM phonos (in terms of amount of amplification which is anywhere from 40 to 47 dB and impedance loading which is typically 47 kilo ohms), but in practice their output is not as high as MMs (say >4.5 mV). Hence your having to crank up to 12 O'Clock (versus 9 O'Clock on your 2M) for the same sound pressure level seems logical. You need to use higher gain to get same sound level.

But as per Stevieboy's data, MC-1H seems to be a low compliance cartridge and may not be best suited for your current tonearm. Lower compliance needs tonearm of heavier mass.

Hi-hat thanks for that suggestion. Can you suggest other tonearm that can match the lower compliance of the cart and works with my TT also ?
 
Hi Abhijit,

Viren makes two circuits. The old one was made for 5751 tubes which one can replace with 12ax7 / ecc83 tubes. That's the one I have. His newer circuit uses the 6np tubes which you have. So you might have to speak to him and prob send the phonostage back to him if you want to conhuvert the circuit to use 12ax7 tubes. Or ask him if there's a switch that allows you to select the tube of your chhuoice. The advantage of the 12ax7 tubes is that you can buy some really good tubes on ebay. You'd have to do some reading up on 12ax7s but it's not complicated. These are old stock tubes and don't come with any guarantee also expensive hence viren does not use them as stock in his phono. The telefunken is a brand that used to be made in Germany. They come in ribbed and smooth plate. The smooth plate supposedly sounds much better. Very neutral big bass good treble good midrange.

Regards
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi stevieboy you are right I have the later phonostage with 6np tubes. He has provided with a switch for ecc83 tubes. Will they be as good as the 12ax7 that ur mentioned? Can I use this 12ax7 instead or will it require a new circuit? I tried contacting viren for last few days .
Abhijit
 
But as per Stevieboy's data, MC-1H seems to be a low compliance cartridge and may not be best suited for your current tonearm. Lower compliance needs tonearm of heavier mass.

Hi jls001, i just checked th data for compliance on vinyl engine in Cartridge resonance evaluator. The tonearm mass is 8.7g, total cartridge weight is 10g and Compliance 12m/mN. on checking the table it shows resonance of 11 Hz.

Is that a ideal or appropriate resonance?
 
Hi jls001, i just checked th data for compliance on vinyl engine in Cartridge resonance evaluator. The tonearm mass is 8.7g, total cartridge weight is 10g and Compliance 12m/mN. on checking the table it shows resonance of 11 Hz.

Is that a ideal or appropriate resonance?

I believe there are two schools of thought when it comes to resonance frequency. One says ideal is 9 to 11 Hz. Another says 10 to 14 Hz is best. You seem to be covered by both schools so you shouldn't worry at all about resonance frequency of your setup. The aim is to avoid a resonant freq falling in the audible band of 20 Hz and beyond.

Your tonearm mass is below 10 gm so it is considered low mass arm. It will mate well with a high compliance cartridge (generally those with 13 to 25 x 10^-6 cm/dyne ratings. But at 12, your's is a border case so with some tweakery you should be able to make it sing as long as you have enough mass on your counterweight-antiskate combo (tracking force to be set in counterweight is specific to cartridge).

Just for info, here are some data which may be useful in future:

Low mass tonearm <= 10 gms
Moderate mass 11 to 25 gms
High mass > 25 gms

Low compliance cartridge : 5 to 10 m/mN
Moderate: 10 to 20
High: > 20

For example, on my Thorens TD 160 B Mk II, I use ADC LMF-2 carbon fiber tonearm whose mass is only 6 gms with a Shure M44-7 cartridge whose compliance is medium (20 m/mN). It's hardly ideal in terms of compliance matching, and also because counterweight is limited to 1.5 gms of tracking force, whereas the recommended tracking force for the cartridge is 1.5 to 3 gms. So even at max setting, I am always stuck at the lowest tracking force (and corresponding antiskate). No wonder, the sonics of this combo is nothing to write home about. Especially with my "expert' ministrations on the table, arm and what not in the recent past not adding much to the sonics! A more ideal cartridge for this tonearm would be something like an Ortofon Super OM 20 with very high compliance, or a Shure V15.
 
Your tonearm mass is below 10 gm so it is considered low mass arm. It will mate well with a high compliance cartridge (generally those with 13 to 25 x 10^-6 cm/dyne ratings. But at 12, your's is a border case so with some tweakery you should be able to make it sing as long as you have enough mass on your counterweight-antiskate combo (tracking force to be set in counterweight is specific to cartridge).

hi jls001,
Thanks a lot for the information.Just had one query, "what do you mean by enough mass on your counterweight-antiskate combo"?
I had problem in balancing this cart with the counterweight supplied and realized and ordered a lower weight counterweight with Mr sushil Anand.
then i removed the scale attached to counterweight and pushed the counterweight further till it got balanced and dialed in appropriate tracking force. Now It then sounder well.
Regards
Abhijit
 
hi jls001,
Just had one query, "what do you mean by enough mass on your counterweight-antiskate combo"?

Hi Abhijit,
Two things:
1. initial tonearm balancing is with tracking force set to nil and antiskate set to nil - this balancing depends on the counterweight and length through which counterweight can move. Remember, you are balancing on a fulcrum so the principle of leverage applies. This depends on two factors - one, how much length is available for the counterweight to move, two - how much is the weight.

2. after you have achieved balance by moving the counterweight back and forth, you now need to set tracking force. My main concern was that you should have enough tracking force appropriate to your cartridge. Then you set antiskate value equal to tracking force.

It is possible to achieve step 1 but be deficient (like my example) in step 2.

Of course, you may need to set proper height to get proper VTA. And then there's azimuth....not to speak of setting up tonearm geometry :) Whew. I'll take an aspirin.
 
Hi Abhijit,

The specs
High Output MC cartridge
Frequency range 20-22.000Hz Channel separation 23dB/1kHz Output voltage 2,2mV Recommended load resistance 47kohms/amplifier connection MM-input Compliance/stylus type 12m/mN elliptical Recommended tracking force 25mN Weight 10g

It should work with the Lyrita. If you're using 5751 tubes, try switching to 12AX7 tubes with 30% more output. A telefunken smooth plate would also take the performance to another level altogether. :) I have no problems with volume with my previous HOMC.

Regards

Edit: check with Mohammed of BE3 amplifiers in bombay itself for some affordable 12AX7 tubes
Hi stevieboy,
I finally could speak with viren and discuss the problem of low output with him. He also agreed that i a can switch the 6n2p with 12ax7 and see. I got in touch with Mr Mohammed of BE3 amplifiers and got delivery of a pair of tung-sol 12ax7's an hour ago. will try them today and see. But i guess will have to wait for some burn-in time to get them singing to there best. will keep you all posted.
Regards
Abhijit
 
Hi stevieboy,
I finally could speak with viren and discuss the problem of low output with him. He also agreed that i a can switch the 6n2p with 12ax7 and see. I got in touch with Mr Mohammed of BE3 amplifiers and got delivery of a pair of tung-sol 12ax7's an hour ago. will try them today and see. But i guess will have to wait for some burn-in time to get them singing to there best. will keep you all posted.
Regards
Abhijit

Hi,
you just can't replace the 6n2p with ECC83.They have same number of pins but differet configuration. Please see
http://www.hifivision.com/phono-turntables/6197-turntable-4.html

Thanks.
 
Mahiruha,

Viren made some amps with switches to switch between the 6np and the 12ax7s, Abhijit's phono has that switch, he's posted the info a few posts earlier.

Abhijit,

This is my personal opinion and an expensive one should you follow it :) I believe if you're checking something out, you should get the best example of it or at least one of the top three contenders. So after the tungsol, check out a good NOS tube either the Telefunken, an Amperex or a Mullard, depending on your taste of either neutrality, liveliness or a seductive midrange respectively. If you don't like the tube, you can always sell it back on ebay, there's a permanent demand for em :) The tungsol should solve your volume issue I think.

Regards
 
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