Separates v/s AVR - What lives more?

[ankitbhargava]

Heat is good for moisture issue, but not good for avr now a days due to compact design. Old avr used to have larger heatsinks. Marantz avrs come with power transistors placed on either side of heatsink with preamp PCB placed over it.Fans are placed in the bottom. With so much congestion, avr is bound to heat up. So Echo mode was added which reduces heat.

I use AVR's Amps only front height and rear surround, I think I can use ECO mode without any performance compromise.

 

[ankitbhargava]

Got it, I was assuming that the way dedicated Power Amps for a reason has better life, Pre-Processors may also have better life over AVRs.

Thank you for the details
Yes the custom made AV rack is open from all 4 sides and has sufficient ventilation too.
I generally use HT setup for maximum 2 hours in evening.
To ensure the AVR doesn't warm up too much, I started using Infinity Fans as well and now when I touch AVR anytime, its normal temperature.


View attachment 62646

View attachment 62647

That a very detailed insight!
The Room is almost 20X18 and AC runs at very nominal cooling but I would not give away the possibility of Moisture because the problem started in April. Its not a dusty environment. I am posting picture to show the state of AVR when I opened it up to check moisture a week back.

Is there a way to verify presence of Moisture?


If a robust and expensive Pre-Pro is expected to last 5 years, I think its better to invest into an AVR only and use some internal Amps as well. Taking off amp load of 7 channels should keep any AVR happy I guess

Talking about the AV rack, I see that even Racks from Sound foundations also have about an inch Gap on top of the AVR shelf
Isn't that enough if all 4 other sides are completely open?

 

[DB1989]

Got it, I was assuming that the way dedicated Power Amps for a reason has better life, Pre-Processors may also have better life over AVRs.

Thank you for the details
Yes the custom made AV rack is open from all 4 sides and has sufficient ventilation too.
I generally use HT setup for maximum 2 hours in evening.
To ensure the AVR doesn't warm up too much, I started using Infinity Fans as well and now when I touch AVR anytime, its normal temperature.


View attachment 62646

View attachment 62647

That a very detailed insight!
The Room is almost 20X18 and AC runs at very nominal cooling but I would not give away the possibility of Moisture because the problem started in April. Its not a dusty environment. I am posting picture to show the state of AVR when I opened it up to check moisture a week back.

Is there a way to verify presence of Moisture?


If a robust and expensive Pre-Pro is expected to last 5 years, I think its better to invest into an AVR only and use some internal Amps as well. Taking off amp load of 7 channels should keep any AVR happy I guess

There's hardly any ventilation in the key area required i.e. the top. At least 1 1/2 or 2 inches for adequate ventilation.

 

[drkrack]

Very helpful
Do you use proper professional AV rack for the equipment?

I do Use a Well built AV rack from Sound foundation ; which is open type. I have a 5kva Stabilizer, feeding a 3.2kva UPS, And via Dedicated 4 sqmm line it is Feeding the AVR and rest of the Electronics. I use Furman and IA power conditioner. I designed the Rack for my Requirements it has nearly 6" free space on the Top of AVR.
I have Shared the Pictures of My AV rack here

Post in thread 'Showcase your audio/video setup here!......' https://www.hifivision.com/threads/showcase-your-audio-video-setup-here.1167/post-916973

 

[kapvin]

I would keep the post short and sweet

Having seen and read about short life of AVRs (specially Marantz & Denon) despite of proper ventilation, cooling, using PAs, power through Servo Stab etc .. do you think the separates (Processor + PA) have a better life as equipment as against AVRs?

I understand that there would be lucky Forum Members who have had no problem with life of the AVR equipment but unfortunately, for me personally I have almost lost 3 of them in 9 years.

I’ll share my limited perspective, and I’ve had pre pros since 2009. The theory is that pre-pros are a smarter choice, with better sound quality and the ability To upgrade your amplification and signal processing at different times as your needs or technologies change. In earlier times, there was a significant difference in 2 channel and all channel power rating of AVR vs a multichannel power amp of a similar rating so a multichannel amo would provide a more muscular performance.

the reality today is that pre pros tend to be similarly priced to top quality avrs, which include amplification. And then you have to buy a power amp. The pre pros don’t seem to offer anything different in terms of upgradability and sound quality. Either.

if I were to do it again, I would buy a high quality (not totl) AVR (think denon 4xxx or better) and add a high quality 2 channel power amp Now or later. This would be a great option in almost all usage scenarios.

hope this helps

edit : I replied after reading the first few mails and not The whole thread. My bad. I would still recommend that that a pre pro makes limited sense. If thermal management is an issue in your use case, you could take more Channels off your avr. re: denon, perhaps they don’t make them as they used to but my bedroom denon 1611 lasted 10 years and 2 transcontinental shifts and then was replaced because the video circuitry died, as result of the Tata sky stb feeding a “shock inducing voltage” through the hdmi cable. ( I moved to OSG and streaming shortly thereafter). Before, it was Used daily for about 3-4 hours on the average as it was the source switcher for my to, so on and used whenever the Tv was

 

[sidvee]

I am not sure about pre/power having longer lives than AVR's but my take is that if you want the latest processing softwares for reasonable pricing, you cannot beat an AVR. Since they sell these in volumes they can offer the latest and greatest software updates much cheaper than a stand alone pre, which will cost more as volume sales will be less. One option is to buy is a basic receiver that meets the sofware/processing needs and buy external amps. (provided the unit has pre-outs). Then one can keep changing the rcvr. often while keeping the amps. around for a longer time. And if indeed internal heat is a cause of AVR failure then that issue also will be sorted out.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[jbkar]

Regarding Pre-power life span, once a experienced professional told me that an good branded power amp lasts several decades. It's the preamp which lasts relatively less due to numerus circuit boards/chips like HDMI boards, Decoders etc

When it comes to scalability, Pre-power wins. You only need to change the pre. You may need to add some channels to power amp. But no need to change thee existing ones.

Performance: AVRs are toys in front of a pre-power( No offence intended). I cannot understand the power rating of a AVR. Typically their specs says, it consumes 500-600 watts of electrical power and delivers 125-150 watts per channel (Total 7 channels). And there are plenty of takers.

The only advantage of AVR: You get everything in one unit.

But loosing three AVRs in 9 years is highly unlikely. May be problem with earthing, voltage fluctuations etc

 

[ankitbhargava]

I’ll share my limited perspective, and I’ve had pre pros since 2009. The theory is that pre-pros are a smarter choice, with better sound quality and the ability To upgrade your amplification and signal processing at different times as your needs or technologies change. In earlier times, there was a significant difference in 2 channel and all channel power rating of AVR vs a multichannel power amp of a similar rating so a multichannel amo would provide a more muscular performance.

the reality today is that pre pros tend to be similarly priced to top quality avrs, which include amplification. And then you have to buy a power amp. The pre pros don’t seem to offer anything different in terms of upgradability and sound quality. Either.

if I were to do it again, I would buy a high quality (not totl) AVR (think denon 4xxx or better) and add a high quality 2 channel power amp Now or later. This would be a great option in almost all usage scenarios.

hope this helps

edit : I replied after reading the first few mails and not The whole thread. My bad. I would still recommend that that a pre pro makes limited sense. If thermal management is an issue in your use case, you could take more Channels off your avr. re: denon, perhaps they don’t make them as they used to but my bedroom denon 1611 lasted 10 years and 2 transcontinental shifts and then was replaced because the video circuitry died, as result of the Tata sky stb feeding a “shock inducing voltage” through the hdmi cable. ( I moved to OSG and streaming shortly thereafter). Before, it was Used daily for about 3-4 hours on the average as it was the source switcher for my to, so on and used whenever the Tv was

Yes thats the next step actually, to free up all amplification on the 7012 so that I could use it at least an year more.
I will be then using it on ECO mode all the time. Have been using AC infinity Fans to keep the AVR cool, even after 2 hours usage its almost cool when the fans are running.

 

[raghupb]

@ankitbhargava
In post #17 (https://www.hifivision.com/threads/separates-v-s-avr-what-lives-more.86473/post-968955), the clearance between top of the amp and wooden shelf is very minimal.
Even though the side are open, there may not be good airflow to take away the heat.
Try to provide at least 3" of space above any component, specially amps that tend to heat up.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[superczar]

Got it, I was assuming that the way dedicated Power Amps for a reason has better life, Pre-Processors may also have better life over AVRs.

Thank you for the details
Yes the custom made AV rack is open from all 4 sides and has sufficient ventilation too.
I generally use HT setup for maximum 2 hours in evening.
To ensure the AVR doesn't warm up too much, I started using Infinity Fans as well and now when I touch AVR anytime, its normal temperature.


View attachment 62646

View attachment 62647

That a very detailed insight!
The Room is almost 20X18 and AC runs at very nominal cooling but I would not give away the possibility of Moisture because the problem started in April. Its not a dusty environment. I am posting picture to show the state of AVR when I opened it up to check moisture a week back.

Is there a way to verify presence of Moisture?


If a robust and expensive Pre-Pro is expected to last 5 years, I think its better to invest into an AVR only and use some internal Amps as well. Taking off amp load of 7 channels should keep any AVR happy I guess

While i can’t say for certain that has to be the definitive cause - but the top gap is way too little for proper ventilation..

Since mine are in a closet, I have more than 2-3 feet open at the top so maybe that helped with the longevity?

 

[spirovious]

I think I can use ECO mode without any performance compromise.

You can use auto echo mode which can be midway.

 

[ankitbhargava]

You can use auto echo mode which can be midway.

Have setup Auto ECO for now

@ankitbhargava
In post #17 (https://www.hifivision.com/threads/separates-v-s-avr-what-lives-more.86473/post-968955), the clearance between top of the amp and wooden shelf is very minimal.
Even though the side are open, there may not be good airflow to take away the heat.
Try to provide at least 3" of space above any component, specially amps that tend to heat up.

Cheers,
Raghu

While i can’t say for certain that has to be the definitive cause - but the top gap is way too little for proper ventilation..

Since mine are in a closet, I have more than 2-3 feet open at the top so maybe that helped with the longevity?

I got few of 1inch Holes drilled in the rack above the AVR for now, I will definitely get it adjusted to have 2 inch head space soon.

 

[raghupb]

Cover equipment when not in use. It will mitigate dust build up.
I have recently started using kitchen liners on top of AV equipment.
They are stiff and can slide easily even when the gap is small, unlike cloth.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[liverpool_for_life]

In that case, I use my setup about 4 hours (or more) everyday.

That's very nice. The point of setting things up, IMO, is to actually use it. And hopefully enjoy it. Sounds like you've got both bases covered.

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

Yup. I bet you do as well

 

[ankitbhargava]

Going a step forward, I am awaiting delivery of Emotiva BasX A7 to power my Surround rear and 4 height channels.
I will free up AVR completely from Amp role.

This way I would know what value Power Amps add for surround rear and height channels and I shall be ready to move to a Pre-Pro as soon as I want and have budgeted for it.

I shall post the results here.

 

[liverpool_for_life]

I shall post the results here.

I expect to see the words "Wish I'd done this sooner" somewhere in there when you do. Enjoy!

 

[insane79]

Going a step forward, I am awaiting delivery of Emotiva BasX A7 to power my Surround rear and 4 height channels.
I will free up AVR completely from Amp role.

This way I would know what value Power Amps add for surround rear and height channels and I shall be ready to move to a Pre-Pro as soon as I want and have budgeted for it.

I shall post the results here.

Its the right way to do it, everything in baby steps so u don't feel the one time big money pinch plus enjoy every component upgrade one at a time

Have Fun..

 

[ankitbhargava]

I received the BasX A7 and I think its relevant to post a quick review here since this thread has gone into discussion about AVR v/s separates (life and performance). Taking the step towards going "separates" way, I decided to first equip my setup with sufficient Amps since I already have AVR which would then work as only processor. This may not be close to what a proper Pre-Processor would perform but at least I would have taste of what PAs could do to my setup when I power all the channels.

I have hooked Rear Surrounds, Top Middle & Front height channels using BasX A7

I did 2 hours testing watching and listening to Atmos demo clips, some Movie scenes that I use as reference (Netflix and Prime) and some offline content.

Here is a gist of my observation and I have done my best to avoid any placebo

1. First and instant improvement was the bass coming out of the rear surround and Atmos channels, I use crossover as 80.
Its really room filling and probably adding to overall SPL. Looks like AVR wasn't pumping enough power to move the woofers of my SVS prime elevation and Polk Fxi A4 bipolar rear surrounds. There are scenes when these channels are simultaneously engaged, the improvement in heaviness/body of those sound effects was pretty audible.

2. The sounds coming from any surround or Atmos Speaker could clearly be pointed which Speaker its coming from. Do we call it channel separation? This has added to the immersive experience.

3. When we do the level calibration (Audyssey or manual) probably AVR can send enough power to each channel because its done individually. But when you are watching a movie, something goes missing and its not able to produce enough and required loudness from each speaker.
While after adding BasX A7, the rear surrounds and Atmos channels specially front heights have suddenly more presence and whenever they are engaged they are clearly audible at the levels the content is intended to play. Again, the impact of detailing in scenes has amplified because of it. The Birds chirping, the Dogs barking, the Cars passing by etc ... those effects are now more emphatic.

So far so good, I am happy with the purchase and moving one step closer to "separates".
My Marantz AVR 7012 should be happier since its relieved from all Amp duties.


The updated beauties, PS : new Rack shall be setup tomorrow.

 

[raghupb]

Nice!! @ankitbhargava
Enjoy the ride.
Try allocating the poweramp to front L/R and check if there is an improvement in 2-ch (music) experience

PS: Did not see that you already have LCR via poweramp. Please ignore my comment above
Cheers,
Raghu