ankitbhargava
Well-Known Member
Though I hardly use this setup for Music (specially stereo listening) but when I originally installed Emotiva XPA5, I did do some testing and it made a huge impact to my untrained ears.
Separates v/s AVR - What lives more?
- Thread starter ankitbhargava
- Start date
I received the BasX A7 and I think its relevant to post a quick review here since this thread has gone into discussion about AVR v/s separates (life and performance). Taking the step towards going "separates" way, I decided to first equip my setup with sufficient Amps since I already have AVR which would then work as only processor. This may not be close to what a proper Pre-Processor would perform but at least I would have taste of what PAs could do to my setup when I power all the channels.
I have hooked Rear Surrounds, Top Middle & Front height channels using BasX A7
I did 2 hours testing watching and listening to Atmos demo clips, some Movie scenes that I use as reference (Netflix and Prime) and some offline content.
Here is a gist of my observation and I have done my best to avoid any placebo
1. First and instant improvement was the bass coming out of the rear surround and Atmos channels, I use crossover as 80.
Its really room filling and probably adding to overall SPL. Looks like AVR wasn't pumping enough power to move the woofers of my SVS prime elevation and Polk Fxi A4 bipolar rear surrounds. There are scenes when these channels are simultaneously engaged, the improvement in heaviness/body of those sound effects was pretty audible.
2. The sounds coming from any surround or Atmos Speaker could clearly be pointed which Speaker its coming from. Do we call it channel separation? This has added to the immersive experience.
3. When we do the level calibration (Audyssey or manual) probably AVR can send enough power to each channel because its done individually. But when you are watching a movie, something goes missing and its not able to produce enough and required loudness from each speaker.
While after adding BasX A7, the rear surrounds and Atmos channels specially front heights have suddenly more presence and whenever they are engaged they are clearly audible at the levels the content is intended to play. Again, the impact of detailing in scenes has amplified because of it. The Birds chirping, the Dogs barking, the Cars passing by etc ... those effects are now more emphatic.
So far so good, I am happy with the purchase and moving one step closer to "separates".
My Marantz AVR 7012 should be happier since its relieved from all Amp duties.
The updated beauties, PS : new Rack shall be setup tomorrow.
View attachment 63218
When you do get time please see how these differ in tonality vs the Emotiva XPA. Curious to know the audible differences.
revolty
Active Member
Hi,I received the BasX A7 and I think its relevant to post a quick review here since this thread has gone into discussion about AVR v/s separates (life and performance). Taking the step towards going "separates" way, I decided to first equip my setup with sufficient Amps since I already have AVR which would then work as only processor. This may not be close to what a proper Pre-Processor would perform but at least I would have taste of what PAs could do to my setup when I power all the channels.
I have hooked Rear Surrounds, Top Middle & Front height channels using BasX A7
I did 2 hours testing watching and listening to Atmos demo clips, some Movie scenes that I use as reference (Netflix and Prime) and some offline content.
Here is a gist of my observation and I have done my best to avoid any placebo
1. First and instant improvement was the bass coming out of the rear surround and Atmos channels, I use crossover as 80.
Its really room filling and probably adding to overall SPL. Looks like AVR wasn't pumping enough power to move the woofers of my SVS prime elevation and Polk Fxi A4 bipolar rear surrounds. There are scenes when these channels are simultaneously engaged, the improvement in heaviness/body of those sound effects was pretty audible.
2. The sounds coming from any surround or Atmos Speaker could clearly be pointed which Speaker its coming from. Do we call it channel separation? This has added to the immersive experience.
3. When we do the level calibration (Audyssey or manual) probably AVR can send enough power to each channel because its done individually. But when you are watching a movie, something goes missing and its not able to produce enough and required loudness from each speaker.
While after adding BasX A7, the rear surrounds and Atmos channels specially front heights have suddenly more presence and whenever they are engaged they are clearly audible at the levels the content is intended to play. Again, the impact of detailing in scenes has amplified because of it. The Birds chirping, the Dogs barking, the Cars passing by etc ... those effects are now more emphatic.
So far so good, I am happy with the purchase and moving one step closer to "separates".
My Marantz AVR 7012 should be happier since its relieved from all Amp duties.
The updated beauties, PS : new Rack shall be setup tomorrow.
View attachment 63218
Congratulations. You have got such a drool worthy setup. Jesus Christ, what do you do for a living? Ignore my naive & stupid question; how are you able to devote your resources to Home theater? Like, your family or better half don't raise any objection?
U got a new rack? which one?
amrutmhatre90
Well-Known Member
Looks like you fixed the Marantz too, congrats on the overall setup.
Adding separates do yield good results, more power the better.
One thing we miss to check out is the damping factor, AVR's are generally not good in this case compared to the power amps.
This is slim and very compact for a 7 channel power amp.
Adding separates do yield good results, more power the better.
One thing we miss to check out is the damping factor, AVR's are generally not good in this case compared to the power amps.
This is slim and very compact for a 7 channel power amp.
Man! This is so revealing and useful.I received the BasX A7 and I think its relevant to post a quick review here since this thread has gone into discussion about AVR v/s separates (life and performance). Taking the step towards going "separates" way, I decided to first equip my setup with sufficient Amps since I already have AVR which would then work as only processor. This may not be close to what a proper Pre-Processor would perform but at least I would have taste of what PAs could do to my setup when I power all the channels.
I have hooked Rear Surrounds, Top Middle & Front height channels using BasX A7
I did 2 hours testing watching and listening to Atmos demo clips, some Movie scenes that I use as reference (Netflix and Prime) and some offline content.
Here is a gist of my observation and I have done my best to avoid any placebo
1. First and instant improvement was the bass coming out of the rear surround and Atmos channels, I use crossover as 80.
Its really room filling and probably adding to overall SPL. Looks like AVR wasn't pumping enough power to move the woofers of my SVS prime elevation and Polk Fxi A4 bipolar rear surrounds. There are scenes when these channels are simultaneously engaged, the improvement in heaviness/body of those sound effects was pretty audible.
2. The sounds coming from any surround or Atmos Speaker could clearly be pointed which Speaker its coming from. Do we call it channel separation? This has added to the immersive experience.
3. When we do the level calibration (Audyssey or manual) probably AVR can send enough power to each channel because its done individually. But when you are watching a movie, something goes missing and its not able to produce enough and required loudness from each speaker.
While after adding BasX A7, the rear surrounds and Atmos channels specially front heights have suddenly more presence and whenever they are engaged they are clearly audible at the levels the content is intended to play. Again, the impact of detailing in scenes has amplified because of it. The Birds chirping, the Dogs barking, the Cars passing by etc ... those effects are now more emphatic.
So far so good, I am happy with the purchase and moving one step closer to "separates".
My Marantz AVR 7012 should be happier since its relieved from all Amp duties.
The updated beauties, PS : new Rack shall be setup tomorrow.
View attachment 63218
And to think that all this for a largely 8-ohm rated efficient set-up fronted by the Klipsches*!
I can't even now imagine how it would be for speakers with lesser true efficiency and 4 ohms
Signed
A guy who thought whole set up can be driven by AVR
* I know they fudge, but even their true efficiency is supposed to be better than most speakers...
Decadent_Spectre
Well-Known Member
Man! This is so revealing and useful.
And to think that all this for a largely 8-ohm rated efficient set-up fronted by the Klipsches*!
I can't even now imagine how it would be for speakers with lesser true efficiency and 4 ohms
Signed
A guy who thought whole set up can be driven by AVR
* I know they fudge, but even their true efficiency is supposed to be better than most speakers...
If your concerned about "fudge" then look at pro speakers, they post more accurate data. Also Klipsch's own pro speakers for cinema are generally rated accurately.
ankitbhargava
Well-Known Member
Sure
Haha, fortunately my wife enjoys this setup as much as I do so on that front I am all setHi,
Congratulations. You have got such a drool worthy setup. Jesus Christ, what do you do for a living? Ignore my naive & stupid question; how are you able to devote your resources to Home theater? Like, your family or better half don't raise any objection?
I consider this as a very good investment to keep some entertainment in life going.
As I mentioned earlier, we watch 5 Movies a week and that therefore the investment justifies :-D
Here is the Picture, I got it custom made locally. I know its not Pro quality at all but serves the purpose well. This time I took care of ventilation sufficiently
I shall be looking to making wiring tidier
Yes
The Network Module was faulty and I replaced it.
I will read about the DF, yes its very sleek and also look good even in a Bedroom cum HT.
Haha, trust me these Klipsch have given me a lot of joy!Man! This is so revealing and useful.
And to think that all this for a largely 8-ohm rated efficient set-up fronted by the Klipsches*!
I can't even now imagine how it would be for speakers with lesser true efficiency and 4 ohms
Signed
A guy who thought whole set up can be driven by AVR
* I know they fudge, but even their true efficiency is supposed to be better than most speakers...
Not like that, Spectre. I am not at all concerned about it; am fairly convinced Klipsch's figs, while exaggerated, are still way far better than most other manufacturers'.
Having said that, yes, I was a bit surprised that these bad boys sucked so much power. And really wondering how thirsty the 87-84 dB claimed speakers must be! And then, if they are 4-ohm nominal, that's even more of a drain...
Will check the pro speakers of Klipsch, but am sure they will be far more expensive.
Decadent_Spectre
Well-Known Member
If your thinking about these for HT then HT needs a lot of power in general to produce the peaks, skimping on power will limit this, the pro klipsch are good speakers but large. Yes most probably the klipsch home range is exaggerated in terms of sensitivity (going by your words as I haven't checked it) but so are most speakers. Real proper sensitivty can only come from some form of horn and/or bandpass enclosure that is large in size. As long as the speakers chosen are small/bookshelves and even if they have a small waveguide/horn, the sensitivity they possess will be limited to the higher frequencies and be much lower than a proper horn. Most people think in home audio that a 7-8" mid-woof is large but it isn't, whether a ported or sealed enclosure these will have limited sensitivity. Remember that a ported enclosure typically only aids sensitivy around tune and about a third to half octave above that.
That makes sense in a way. It is a very interesting postulation, in fact.
A. Is it just the dynamic range that sucks power? Or to put it another way: does the dynamic range of movies require huge power?
Like, as I have said before, my music preference is hip-hop, r&b and jazz, all of which have a kind of dynamism about them. Am sure, all kinds of pop and rock also have them, but true, may not be to the level of these genres... where there could be passages of melody and then passages of sheer big drops.
B. But to be sure, will other kind of smooth, flowing music with not much dynamism not require as much power?
Would love for you and other FMs to weigh in. (Disclosure: Am learning really from the bottom-up in this hobby, so if the question is stupid, kindly ignore it)
I have read so many measures, both hobbyist and scientific, which have called out Klipsch.
The one I could find from the top of my head, am attaching here:
Klipsch RP-8000F Tower Speaker Review
The Klipsch RP-8000F, a dual 8" woofer tower speaker system that promises a wide dynamic range for lots of punch and impact, but will that come at the cost? Read our review to find out...
www.audioholics.com
Having said that, I can tell you (to my ear; YMMV) the Klipsches were the most easiest to power among ALL the speakers I have auditioned so far.
I listened to them powered by a Denon 1400, and those bad boys (RP-5000F) were relentless, be it for music or movies. They weren't even as bright as people with the earlier R series had mentioned.
That's interesting, this correlation between sensitivity and size. Will read up on this. (So much to research in this hobby!)
This, as of right now, is way beyond my knowledge, as with most things. And, as always, will read up to try and get up to speed.
This, especially, I did not understand:
"Most people think in home audio that a 7-8" mid-woof is large but it isn't, whether a ported or sealed enclosure these will have limited sensitivity."
Decadent_Spectre
Well-Known Member
That makes sense in a way. It is a very interesting postulation, in fact.
A. Is it just the dynamic range that sucks power? Or to put it another way: does the dynamic range of movies require huge power?
Like, as I have said before, my music preference is hip-hop, r&b and jazz, all of which have a kind of dynamism about them. Am sure, all kinds of pop and rock also have them, but true, may not be to the level of these genres... where there could be passages of melody and then passages of sheer big drops.
B. But to be sure, will other kind of smooth, flowing music with not much dynamism not require as much power?
Would love for you and other FMs to weigh in. (Disclosure: Am learning really from the bottom-up in this hobby, so if the question is stupid, kindly ignore it)
I have read so many measures, both hobbyist and scientific, which have called out Klipsch.
The one I could find from the top of my head, am attaching here:
View attachment 63255
Klipsch RP-8000F Tower Speaker Review
The Klipsch RP-8000F, a dual 8" woofer tower speaker system that promises a wide dynamic range for lots of punch and impact, but will that come at the cost? Read our review to find out...
Having said that, I can tell you (to my ear; YMMV) the Klipsches were the most easiest to power among ALL the speakers I have auditioned so far.
I listened to them powered by a Denon 1400, and those bad boys (RP-5000F) were relentless, be it for music or movies. They weren't even as bright as people with the earlier R series had mentioned.
That's interesting, this correlation between sensitivity and size. Will read up on this. (So much to research in this hobby!)
This, as of right now, is way beyond my knowledge, as with most things. And, as always, will read up to try and get up to speed.
This, especially, I did not understand:
"Most people think in home audio that a 7-8" mid-woof is large but it isn't, whether a ported or sealed enclosure these will have limited sensitivity."
You need to understand that power is always in flux in a speaker system depending upon the content played.
With that out of the way, a sine wave has a crest factor of 3db, the loudest to lowest sound level. In most music you will fand a crest factor of at least 6db, live concerts have as much as 15db or even higher crest factor. Suppose you play a movie and the average level is 75db with about 20W, now there is a 9db peak, what do you need? 160W. Movies have a lot of dynamics which need peak power, it's why many HT fans are a huge fan of class D amps since they offer this peak power along with a more brighter sound that translates to detail in the movie. IF music is played with limited crest factor (compressed music) then you will need less peaks but the average power output from the amp will be higher, this will stress both the amp and speakers as they get closer to their limits, while for peaks both amps (class D) and speakers have far greater tolerance. For HT only I would recommend class D.
I'm sure they are correct, you'd need a much larger enclosure and horn to reach 98db than that speaker. The horn on that speaker isn't particularly big, and just 2 8" woofers.
No doubt since they have a small horn while most speakers have a dome tweeter. They also have dual 8" drivers compared to what I guess might be 5-6.5" woofers on other similar home audio speakers.
Sensitivity increases with size particularly as you go lower in frequency, addition of high sensitivity pro drivers help. Why do vented enclosure tend to be bigger? The larger cabinet volume helps with the reflex port to provide efficiency around tune. What this means is that a vented encloure will have a tuning frequency where it's efficiency is greatest and excursion minimum, below this if you operate it the driver acts as if it were in free air and excursion goes out of control, thus making it much easier to damage the driver. The thing to remember is that SPL comes from air displacement, the lower in frequency, the more air needs to be displaced. I hope this makes sense?
If you truly want high sensitivity then look to add dual 12-15-18-21" pro style drivers in a ported enclosure or the best option, a horn. Now not all of these choices can be used as high in frequency as a small 7-8" driver so there is that to consider. For the home segment of HT the Klipsch makes the right trade offs, though its specs may be incorrect.
What I meant by that was most people are used to a 5-8" mid-woof in home audio speakers, they think it's high sensitivity but it's not compared to the pro audio alternatives.
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Thanks, Spectre.
Got more questions, but just realised that this is Ankit's pre-pro vs AVR life thread.
Completely my bad, so we could either move this over to my 'channel-power' thread or continue the chat here, whichever suits Ankit.
Regards
ankitbhargava
Well-Known Member
Definitely this thread could be used to discuss the actual reason why Pre-Pro could be better (in performance if not life) technically.
I am technically handicapped but I could co-relate this to one incident. While buying Emotiva XPA5 I spoke to an AV gear seller who came highly recommended. He told me in plain language that please don't refer to your "Klipsch sensitivity". They boast it based on the horn loaded Tweeters., these speakers require a lot of power to drive the woofers otherwise you aren't using them at their potential.
When I introduced Emotiva to my setup, oh yes! the same speakers were performing way way better. Huge difference!
Does it co-relate to what you explained above?
Decadent_Spectre
Well-Known Member
Yes the power part is directly related. I'd imagine on AVR power the Klipsch sound thin and lack bass.
He is correct, the small horn, though small, will offer much higher sensitivity than the woofer.
ankitbhargava
Well-Known Member
It did sound thin and light for sure!! The woofers came into life only after PAs
So, clearly adding power is the way to go.
Thanks both.
Decadent_Spectre
Well-Known Member
Yes. Personally I don't even use an AVR or pre/pro and it works fine for me but my system is not surround.
You do like some math so calculate what you need. For example -
Assuming a speaker with a broadband sensitivity of 90db and you want 85db at LP + 9 db peak = 94db.
You sit at 4 meters means a loss of 12db.
So you'd need about 64W, I suggest 3db headroom at the minimum, so you need 128W, unclipped with a total of 5db headroom.
You do like some math so calculate what you need. For example -
Assuming a speaker with a broadband sensitivity of 90db and you want 85db at LP + 9 db peak = 94db.
You sit at 4 meters means a loss of 12db.
So you'd need about 64W, I suggest 3db headroom at the minimum, so you need 128W, unclipped with a total of 5db headroom.
sandeepmohan
Well-Known Member
I hope it is being pulled out of that crammed shelf. That set up is simply not going to do it any good, even if its working as a processor.
Ya, works.
So, small rooms do have an advantage finally somewhere!
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