Sound signature

[doors666]

If the goal of an audio component is to reproduce the music as faithfully as possible, any coloration that is introduced is undesirable from such a perspective. Based on their shortcomings, amps will introduce artefacts in the form of noise, distortion, clipping etc that are essentially their sound signatures. Where do these shortcomings reveal themselves in an amp?

Current output, power bandwidth, THD, quality of: capacitors, transformers, power supply, circuit design, isolation, clipping performance -- all these and more impact an amps performance. To say that all amps at the same power rating have more or less the same sound signature..I don't know what to say.

Actually, most of the times, the distinction in sound signature (read that as distortion) is introduced by the manufacturer intentionally to distinguish their products from others. Amps are qualified as warm, rich, bright etc etc etc, all these are distortions, only neutral (aka transparent) is ok. If your amp is warm or bright, its a bad amp which is designed to work with bad speakers. If the sound on my cd is not warm, why would an amp that produces warm sounds be called good? How many times I've heard, I have bright speakers, I need warm amp (or worse, warm cables), why cant people just buy neutral speakers and amp, instead of buying warm speakers and bright amp.

Its not all that hard to make a neutral amp, you actually have to make an effort to make that same amp sound warm or bright.

 

[square_wave]

Room and acoustics play a big role than source and preamp for stereo listening ?
Can you give some more info on this?

Thanks in advance
Renjith

A good listening room + medium quality gear + speaker X

A bad room + high quality gear + speaker X

The first system will satisfy you more.

Key word is satisfy. A magnifying glass wielding hardcore audiophile may be able to hear more details and other such things in the second system though.

 

[square_wave]

I think the room is your biggest ally and also your biggest enemy. So all efforts and expenses must go towards trying to overcome the limitations of the room, and maximising its strengths.

Even a system that is generally accepted as good by people who own them will not sound good if it is not properly optimised to the limitations of (another) room. By the same token, a not so good system can punch above its weight class when properly optimised to the room.

But the above assumes that one has assembled a system, and want to fine tune the setup to the next level. If you qualify for this, I'd suggest you tackle speaker placement seriously. A good starting point is the Cardas guide. If you must change components, do so only after you are sure that you have eked out the best the current setup can give.

PS: I disagree with people who say the power amp does not contribute much to the sound signature, or contributes very less. With everything else being kept the same, when I swap between two power amps I find a substantial difference in my setup.

That is why I used the word Synergistic. Most of the time, the day and night difference which people hear between power amps is due to mismatches or a case of comparison with bad amplifiers.

Let us not talk about bad amps here.

If you identify 2 power amps of competent design; mid-level and high quality, and find a pair of speakers which is technically synergistic with these two amps. If you setup this system optimally, changing preamps and source will yield better results than the power amps.

 

[doors666]

That is why I used the word Synergistic. Most of the time, the day and night difference which people hear between power amps is due to mismatches or a case of comparison with bad amplifiers.

Let us not talk about bad amps here.

If you identify 2 power amps of competent design; mid-level and high quality, and find a pair of speakers which is technically synergistic with these two amps. If you setup this system optimally, changing preamps and source will yield better results than the power amps.

Infact, one might have a tough time identifying them in blind tests.

 

[square_wave]

Wow, I am learning something new every day. Today's gem is that power amp has negligible impact on sound signature. We may as well all buy Norge

This is a bad conclusion None said anything like this. Read the thread fully if you may. And the quest for high fidelity is a different game. You have to approach each system depending upon the nature of the current setup and expectations.

 

[square_wave]

Infact, one might have a tough time identifying them in blind tests.

Agreebut the key is 2 power amps of competent design at slightly varying price points. There is a whole world of difference between a typical budget power amp and a Pass lab amp for example. In a very high fidelity setup, a change in amp may make or break a systemso that is a different story

 

[jls001]

That is why I used the word Synergistic. Most of the time, the day and night difference which people hear between power amps is due to mismatches or a case of comparison with bad amplifiers.

Let us not talk about bad amps here.

It's not night/day difference I hear. My current power amp reproduces better bass and better highs (which is why I chose to retain it). Mids is roughly same as previous power amp. Image depth and width are same as before. I would not classify my previous power amp as bad. But neither is the current one a very good one.

If you identify 2 power amps of competent design; mid-level and high quality, and find a pair of speakers which is technically synergistic with these two amps. If you setup this system optimally, changing preamps and source will yield better results than the power amps.

Previous (digital) source and preamp are also gone in favour of current one as current one is so much better than previous. Speaker stays the same, though.

 

[renjith lal]

What exactly you mean by bad room? the room is not of regular size or room with out any acoustics done ? Can you please give some more idea?

Thanks
Renjith

A good listening room + medium quality gear + speaker X

A bad room + high quality gear + speaker X

The first system will satisfy you more.

Key word is satisfy. A magnifying glass wielding hardcore audiophile may be able to hear more details and other such things in the second system though.

 

[doors666]

Agreebut the key is 2 power amps of competent design at slightly varying price points. There is a whole world of difference between a typical budget power amp and a Pass lab amp for example. In a very high fidelity setup, a change in amp may make or break a systemso that is a different story

pass amps are budget power amps. check the cost of pcb and parts, its all dirt cheap. the only expensive items will be trafo and heatsinks.

Norge is a copy of a diy amp and preamp designed by someone else, why are people considering it as a cheap and bad amp? its should be able to beat the marantzs and nads of the world. i havent heard it though so dont know.

 

[captrajesh]

I have done quite a bit of experimentation, starting from entry level Denon to vintage amps like Technics, Luxman and DIY efforts like LM3886 based Mauro Penasa, Class D amp, Pass DIY pre amp to mid end electronics from Acoustic Portrait.

For speakers, I've had Audio engineer designed speakers (Kenwood drivers) Acoustic Portrait bookshelfs to the current ones, Cadence Arista electrostatic speakers.

I have several cables ranging from entry level stock interconnects provided with the equipment, picked up from Richie street to reference cables from highly acclaimed brands like Audio Quest, Audio Art, Straight Wire, Yamamura, Cadras, Supra.

I have done a lot of mix and match of the above components and my conclusion is that, it is all about synergy of components. Also, one bad link in the chain can spoil the entire show.

 

[BLASTO]

I have done a lot of mix and match of the above components and my conclusion is that, it is all about synergy of components. Also, one bad link in the chain can spoil the entire show.

Can't write it better..
Spend months on efforts in auditioning and brig home the best of the audition and commit one simple mistake of connecting it to a different cable, everything goes in for a toss and you blame the room.

Thinking about it, not even auditions are good enough given the number of variables involved. You can easily pass an equipment that you like if they have no synergy with other components in the demo room. As simple as that.

 

[Divakar7]

Sarcasm is lost on some folks

 

[square_wave]

What exactly you mean by bad room? the room is not of regular size or room with out any acoustics done ? Can you please give some more idea?

Thanks
Renjith

Elaborate professional acoustic treatment is not a requirement for two channel audio. Room size should be adequate for the speaker size and power, well damped with furniture, carpets and careful treatment of primary reflection points and ceilings are all necessary for a room to qualify as a good room. In addition to this, if you run into bass problems, this needs to be sorted out by careful placement of speakers and / or bass traps etc.

 

[captrajesh]

if you run into bass problems, this needs to be sorted out by careful placement of speakers and / or bass traps etc.

Check this post. Interesting way of dealing with bass overhang. http://www.hifivision.com/hot-deals/25211-musical-fidelity-m1-dac-hotdeal-15.html#post362181

 

[square_wave]

Check this post. Interesting way of dealing with bass overhang. http://www.hifivision.com/hot-deals/25211-musical-fidelity-m1-dac-hotdeal-15.html#post362181

Changing the free cables he had to straightwire waveguide 16 did the trick.

This is a common observation when folks change from the freebie cables. Boomy bass, harshness etcwill get resolved if the rest of your system is upto it.

This cable CANNOT be a solution to all bass related issues in all situations though.

 

[square_wave]

@Doors,

Pass amps are not budget amps Doors. They are some of the best solid state amplifiers out there. Some of the models are quite costly too.

Nelson Pass being a very accommodating individual encourages DIY hence many of his designs are easily available for DIY. Counting the parts and its cost cannot certify a design as low budget.

Try and listen to a setup which use Pass labs amplifiers.

 

[BLASTO]

This cable CANNOT be a solution to all bass related issues in all situations though.

Most probably yes.

But, Its has nothing to do with replacing free cables. I did not replace free cables.

For instance, the chord Silverscreen cable tested in my system creates some amount of boom (not to the extent as in the DAC comparo thread) which clouds the midrange. These cables are more costly. Here, the cheaper cables proved more useful.

All Iam saying is, try these before going for more costly bass traps, reflection point treatment etc. You may be happy to stop here too as with my case.
And it does not cost a bomb to experiment and accept failure.

 

[square_wave]

Sarcasm is lost on some folks

@Divakar,

Sarcasm is best ignored

 

[BLASTO]

@Divakar,

Sarcasm is best ignored

Iam sheldon. Can someone explain the sarcasm..

 

[square_wave]

Most probably yes.

But, Its has nothing to do with replacing free cables. I did not replace free cables.

For instance, the chord Silverscreen cable tested in my system creates some amount of boom (not to the extent as in the DAC comparo thread) which clouds the midrange. These cables are more costly. Here, the cheaper cables proved more useful.

All Iam saying is, try these before going for more costly bass traps, reflection point treatment etc. You may be happy to stop here too as with my case.
And it does not cost a bomb to experiment and accept failure.

Even in super high end audio, bass is a problem. People spend countless hours and enormous amounts of money to surmount this issue. The cheap way out is to use DSP which many purists do not like.

You cannot use cables to solve all this.

In your case, you happened to find a cable which works well in your particular situation. Price is not the criteria.

Yup, sometimes, cables may solve the problem. No harm in trying it out.