koushik
Well-Known Member
@Murali - 
Sound signature
- Thread starter renjith lal
- Start date
Iam begining to think that is the best way to go.
Not to open the mouth until asked with a specific query.
One thing I have noticed is, people suggesting stuff without seeing, let alone auditioning them.
Not a honest place anymore. As the saying goes, It is easy to take risk especially when other people's money is involved.
I have a degree in Computer engineering, but please do not try to intimidate others with this technical jargon.
No, I dont believe then 2 cables with same gauge and are resaonabily well made will sound different in the same system, no matter how cheap one is and how expensive the second one is.
All I am interested in knowing is how a speaker cable would damage an amplifier, as you stated in the quote you provided.
Secondly, to me, and many others, the whole point is to enjoy the music. I am sure you get much more pleasure out of $500 cables. To my ears, 16 gauge monoprice cables sound as good as any other. I have many other interesting things to do with money than blow up on exotic cables from Finland or other far off places.
Cheers,
Saurabh
With all due respect to your education mentioned above and the world of 0 and 1 you live in, plus not to initmidate you with technical jargon....
Trust you drive a car. Of course, you must as you live in the land of gas guzzlers. It is the engine which drives the car, isn't it, like an amplifier driving a speaker? But you, as the driver, control that and how you use your foot on the gas pedal, control the steering, change gears, etc, that primarily determine the way the car is moving. You may be driving a BMW but as long as your body control through the various organs is equivalent to driving an Ambassador, the BMW will move like the latter. If you are a good driver and know the "art" (not science so that we don't bring in objectivity tests here) of knowing your car and using your feet and hands, plus brain, it will be different. If your car is driven by another, say your wife or friends, will it move in exactly the same way as under your control? Also remember, an Ambassador, despite how hard you put your foot pressure on the accelerator, will move the only way it is capable of. But if you know the strengths and limitations of that car, and have capable hands and feet, you will be able to use its full potential, so no belittling here, just a comparison.
The cables are like our hands and feet, they don't have a brain, and a speaker cable, for example, is the link between amplifier and speaker transmitting electricity. If it has sore feet or hands, suffers from arthritis, too weak, etc, you have a difference there.
Please do not get too carried away with the world of 0 and 1, like either you are with me or you are against me, my friend. Unfortunately, that is the viewpoint now-a-days. By the way, thanks for the information that exotic cables are bought from Finland and if you can be a little more specific here, it will greatly help a few like me who you believe have money to "blow up" on such exotic cables as we always look for better things in the objective world. And of course, we people do enjoy our music like you do.
Take care and enjoy. But let others also do.
murali
square_wave,
Unfortunately people are getting involved in serious discussions using internet as their source of knowledge. I have mentioned in other threads that the discussions should be PURELY / TOTALLY based upon experiences.
Unfortunately people are getting involved in serious discussions using internet as their source of knowledge. I have mentioned in other threads that the discussions should be PURELY / TOTALLY based upon experiences.
Murali - Lets not get personal here.
Anyone with any experience in driving can easily tell which one is BMW and which one is Ambassador. Its a fairly objective test.
Characteristics like handling and response, engine power and acceleration can be objectively judged. I am sure no one can confuse between an Ambassador and a BMW. Things are not so clear when it comes to cables.
I have heard plenty of cables but haven't had anyone who can identify "cheaper" from expensive ones. even people who claim to have very good ears have not been able to identify cheaper from expensive cables reliably in a double blind tests. May be the cables do bring some extra benefit, which is not measurable. But what's the point if we can not tell the difference in a blind test too?
In the end, all I have to say, from my experience in this matter is cables do not make a difference to the sound field, as thats what the topic was about.
Cheers,
Saurabh
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Kaushik, I am not here to prove a point. If you like the cables you are using, its all good by me.
IN my experience cables do not make a difference, and to add to it, people in a double blind test have not been able to identify the different cables reliably.
I am not sure if you have any formal training in music, but if you did you could make out D major from a D minor, and know if the singer is in that key or not. Its a fairly objective test as well. Anyone who has had some training in music can identify, and this can be an objective test.
In the end, if you are happy with your cables, I am happy for you. What I am not happy about is the suggestion, without any proof, that cables make a difference to the sound field - as that is what the OP asked about. There are people who might take this advise and buy cables they don't need to - it would not be right.
Cheers,
Saurabh
I recently tested my TL FS with 2 different setup,
1. Denon AVR + Pioneer DVD
2. Sansui Stereo Amp + Marantz CD Player
3. Sony Stereo Amp + Pioneer DVD
The rest of the gear / room / speaker placement / cables being the same the results were SQ with setup 2 was mind-blowing followed by setup 3 and last was setup 1.
So you can decide yourself how much an Amplifier or Source contribute to Sound Signature.
As per my observation, the source contributes to the maximum sound signature followed by Speakers and last the Amplifier.
Cheers,
1. Denon AVR + Pioneer DVD
2. Sansui Stereo Amp + Marantz CD Player
3. Sony Stereo Amp + Pioneer DVD
The rest of the gear / room / speaker placement / cables being the same the results were SQ with setup 2 was mind-blowing followed by setup 3 and last was setup 1.
So you can decide yourself how much an Amplifier or Source contribute to Sound Signature.
As per my observation, the source contributes to the maximum sound signature followed by Speakers and last the Amplifier.
Cheers,
Thanks for the link to you post.
BLASTO, in principle, I am not trying to say what you are saying is wrong. You have been respectful of other people's opinions and I would be of yours.
I do not claim to be an audiophile, but just someone who enjoys listening to music I love listening to. What I write below is from my experience -
I have tested a few cables as well, to test if I could find anything that the cables I have been using don't bring out. A couple of the cables were pretty expensive out of 5 I tested.
All I could say is that I did not notice any difference after conducting blind tests with my wife and a fried and I as the judges. None of us could not reliably differentiate the cables. I did notice that any cable when the music is turned on higher seems to sound better - but then its not a blind test. When I did know which cable was being used, I tend to prefer the more expensive one, without being able to pinpoint why I liked it better. All I could come up were words like more clarity, better sounding etc. I decided to stick with the cables I had been using as all of us failed the blind tests.
I am not saying that this is true for everyone. If you find something extra with the cables, I really am happy (or jealous, maybe) that you can hear what I can not. But how can we be sure that everyone hears more (or better) with the more expensive cables. I think, we should be a little bit cautious in advising on forum where a some people will take advise a gospel hoping it improves the sound and buy expensive cables and find out that it made no difference at all.
There might be a lot to gain from changing speaker, working on room acoustics, more powerful and faithful to sound produced amplifier, than cables. even if cables do bring in some benefits (which I doubt), it would be minuscule compared to what you put into it. There are much better gains that can be had by changing to better speakers etc...
Again, this is just my opinion based on my experience and the results after what I could do to make the tests as objective as possible in testing cables.
Cheers,
Saurabh
Hey Dazoy, I asked what your system consists of and you did not mention.
My earlier setup consisted of Jamo Floorstands and Musichall Amp. The speakers especially did NOT showed any change when I changed cables. The low end cables provided reasonable sound stage and the higher end ones did not produce anything more. The sounded was also rounded off and needless to say I subscribed to the thought that the cables do not make any kind of interference to the sound. And that any change inthe signal path is bad. But bad compared to what? There aren't any 'absoulute' cables to compare.
In my new setup the case is right away opposite. I do not think you are telling anything wrong from your observations. It is true. I assume you have a entry level or mid fi level setup. These are not revealing in any sense of the word. The weakest link can be elsewhere entirely and changing the cable will not help.
Changing the cable and trying out different ones will only work wonders if CABLE is indeed the weakest link in the setup.
It so happens many times that the people asking question are the ones in the begenning of the hobby and with arguiably low end systems (no offense). When the more experienced answer the question from their exposure and the person asking cannot relate to it, it becomes a lose-lose situation to both the parties involved.
I can with certainity tell this because, I have just about moved from the second category to the first recently and Iam myself confused on seeing some of my thought process and foundations vanish in thin air.
Refer the below posts,
http://www.hifivision.com/sale-owne...cornhour-other-accessories-10.html#post362563
http://www.hifivision.com/sale-owne...cornhour-other-accessories-10.html#post362564
Lastly, I can relate to your posts very well and have the patience to reply. But the ones you see above already 'know' the fact and live by it and experienced the cable changes in different setups they came along. It is not in their agenda to make to make you believe or explain stuff from the start and feel insulted to discuss a fact with a beginner who will eventually get past the stage anyways. Thats the reason you see comments like 'if you dont hear a difference, continue with stock cables', not very much off I would say.
I was calling high priced cables 'snake oil' in the not so distant past. Ie within a month or so earlier bullshitting expert opinions albeit not vocally like you but mostly in the mind. You will come there sooner or later.
As for why there is a change in sound with the speaker cables, I don't know, won't know.. They all look the same and are freaking copper. But each one od them is an equalizer. Looking at them and applying a logical thought will put you in an emberasing situation of believing vodoo especially you work in an industry where logic is bread and butter (IT). But once you switch on the system, all you hear is music in the high end cables and sound in the low end ones. It is surpricing that the cable which sounded very good yesterday sounds not so good today as there is a costlier, more refined cable nearby. Much like the speakers out there. Between a 500/- cable and 5000/- cable, there is a world of difference which you can identify not in a double blind test but when you are asleep. But you need the right system for the purpose. A 10000/- speker will not even differentiate the above cables even if you put your mind and soul listening to the changes. Eventually will make you believe that changes if any are miniscule and do not warrent spending money.
I end here.
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HI Blasto,
I am sorry if I missed the post about my system.
I currently am in the process of selling my setup, as I am about to move to another country.
This was my music setup which I tested with the cables -
Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Grand speakers.
Thorens TD280 turntable
Technics SL-BD200 turntable
Bryston 9B Amp
WD TV
Onkyo 608 (I kept it after upgrading to newer Onkyo)
Behringer 1124 Feedback Destroyer (to work with Hsu subwoofer below)
I only have the turntables and other bits and pieces left now
For the movies setup I have the following, which I did not test with the cables -
Onkyo 809
Klipsch WF35
Klipsch WC 24 Center speaker
Klipsch WB 14 bookshelf speakers
Hsu VTF3 subwoofer
Epson 8350 Projector
110" screen
synology Server for Media
Boxee as media player
I think there is some misunderstanding here.
I am not advocating anyone to buy the cheapest cable possible. I use Monoprice and Bluejeans cables. They are both well made, and are very similar in quality. They both performed the same on my systems than more expensive cables I tried. I am against the "exotic" cables that people buy which I call snake oil. These are no different to cable lifter people swear by.
Most of the manufacturers buy cables from say a factory in China and put on their own packaging and logos. There are very few "manufacturers" of cables that actually do manufacture the cables.
Cheers,
Saurabh
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The ones marked bold should easily surpass my current setup of Thiel CS1.6, Musical Fidelity M1 DAC and Musical Fidelity A5.5 amp.
I have no reason to believe you cannot identify a 500/- cable with a 5000/- cable in this setup in a double blind test, let alone when half asleep.
What cables were you testing?
In case you were using the WDTV for the testing, you are doomed. That has the most horrible DAC I have come accross in recent time.
If you have access to the same setup I have bolded, try again this weekend and come and post your views.
If you have access to the same setup I have bolded, try again this weekend and come and post your views.
Check below too on what to look for.
http://www.hifivision.com/hot-deals/25211-musical-fidelity-m1-dac-hotdeal-15.html#post362183
http://www.hifivision.com/audio-vid...ical-digital-cable-post362018.html#post362018
Also, If you are demoing songs with narrow soundstage, vocals, its going to be mostly same.
Rock distinguishes cables mercilessly. So it also depends on what you hear.
http://www.hifivision.com/hot-deals/25211-musical-fidelity-m1-dac-hotdeal-15.html#post362183
http://www.hifivision.com/audio-vid...ical-digital-cable-post362018.html#post362018
Also, If you are demoing songs with narrow soundstage, vocals, its going to be mostly same.
Rock distinguishes cables mercilessly. So it also depends on what you hear.
Saurabh[/QUOTE]
Hi Saurabh,
In the interest of increasing the general knowledge of all, can you please share the names of singers who are measured and considered the best by the above mentioned metrics?
Thanks in advance.
Hi Saurabh,
In the interest of increasing the general knowledge of all, can you please share the names of singers who are measured and considered the best by the above mentioned metrics?
Thanks in advance.
I haven't tried those myself but they are well regarded here. The costliest cables I auditioned to date are <=5k rs. which is roughly 100$.
Maybe we dont have such great low cost cables in the local market.
By costly if you mean 50k cables, currently I have no need for them but i hope still the math holds without proof.
500k system should be able to differentiate them. You and I need not bother with the 50k cables as yet.
Hi Saurabh,
In the interest of increasing the general knowledge of all, can you please share the names of singers who are measured and considered the best by the above mentioned metrics?
Thanks in advance.[/QUOTE]
No I can not. The response was in reply to an abstract question. Of course, there is more than just tone and technique that would make a singer, and I confess there is lot of subjectivity involved.
Cheers,
Saurabh
Hi Blasto,
I tried -
Anjou Speaker Cable by Pear Cables (Borrowed for the test) - Extremely bloody expensive cable
Audioquest Go-4 (Borrowed for the test) -Bloody expensive cable
Cardas - Neutral Reference speaker cable (Borrowed for the test) Almost as expensive cable as above
Canare 4S11 Cable by Bluejeans (I own) Reasonably priced cable
Monoprice 16 AWG cable (I own) - Cheapest Cable
I don't have the amp and speakers in question any more.
I used WD as well as CD player, PC (using optical cable), both turntables as the sources. I could not differentiate the cables. at most I was correct 4 times out of 10 with Cardas cable and only once, I think it was a coincidence. I honestly could not make the difference out.
I used
Western classical (Mozart symphony 41, flight of the bumblebee, Tchaikovsky Swan Lake and 1812)
Pop (Beatles, Beach boys and some others)
Rock (Bruce Springsteen, Nirvana, Rage of the Machines, Led Zepplin, Queen)
Hip-hop (Fugees, Lauryn Hill, 2Pac, Black eyed peas)
Indie (Sean Lennon and others) as the music in the test.
Cheers,
Saurabh
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vikoma
Member
Today I happened to audition Cadence electrostatic speakers at Oceanic, and I was very surprised to find that the room was very much bare, except for the thin carpet and a sofa.
And yet the music was divine, much superior to what I had heard so far (most were under Rs. 1 lakh speakers).
Mr. Mahindra's take was that room setup will matter, but cables etc. contribute far more. He suggested that I should create an expectation with respect to original sound of instrument. Since I had heard flute earlier, it was so much natural on his electrostatics compared to other speakers. (And far more better than other systems I have experienced upto about Rs. 1 lakh.)
So now it is usual that there can be multiple deficiencies in the chain of reproduction. So it is very much possible that one may change the cables but still don't see any difference - it presumes all other components are at their best; but this is unlikely to be so.
So the main learning I have been having is that I need to be very very patient and just don't miss the opportunity to audition and learn!
And yet the music was divine, much superior to what I had heard so far (most were under Rs. 1 lakh speakers).
Mr. Mahindra's take was that room setup will matter, but cables etc. contribute far more. He suggested that I should create an expectation with respect to original sound of instrument. Since I had heard flute earlier, it was so much natural on his electrostatics compared to other speakers. (And far more better than other systems I have experienced upto about Rs. 1 lakh.)
So now it is usual that there can be multiple deficiencies in the chain of reproduction. So it is very much possible that one may change the cables but still don't see any difference - it presumes all other components are at their best; but this is unlikely to be so.
So the main learning I have been having is that I need to be very very patient and just don't miss the opportunity to audition and learn!
In general, the capability of listening/differentiating the higher frequencies (say 13kh-20kh) vary from person to person. It reduces with the age also.
So, not everybody feel the same difference between cables. I feel they are not as prominent as changing speakers. somebody can differentiate these smaller (less prominent when compared to speakers/Amps) changes easily and some cannot.
If you can't differentiate it, it doesn't mean it is not there. It may be your hearing, your room.. stopping you.
No offense to anybody. Its just a fact.
If you cant here the difference, be happy - you've saved money on that upgrade:yahoo:
So, not everybody feel the same difference between cables. I feel they are not as prominent as changing speakers. somebody can differentiate these smaller (less prominent when compared to speakers/Amps) changes easily and some cannot.
If you can't differentiate it, it doesn't mean it is not there. It may be your hearing, your room.. stopping you.
No offense to anybody. Its just a fact.
If you cant here the difference, be happy - you've saved money on that upgrade:yahoo:
For excellent sound that won't break the bank, the 5 Star Award Winning Wharfedale Diamond 12.1 Bookshelf Speakers is the one to consider!
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