Sound signature

[corElement]

Speakers = Face of the sound - Everyone's face is different and has various preferences and moods.
Amplifier = Voice of the sound - Everyones voice is different, some are similar, some aren't changes through the day,
Pre = Heart of the sound - Everyones heart beats yet each are different.
Dac = Brains of the sound - Intelligence!
Cables = Muscles of the sound - Weak muscles cant perform daily tasks, gotta exercise!

The only consistent factor in this is the inconsistency of our chemical state of mind.

 

[dazoy]

In most practical music systems, this is the order in which components affect the general sound signature provided you are looking at components at similar price points and they are all synergistic in nature.

1. Speakers
2. Room and acoustics
3. Source and Preamp
4. Power amp
5. Cables

The pursuit of High fidelity is a different game. There are different approaches depending upon the situation.

1. Is three any objective test to prove to non-believers like me that cables can have any impact on the sound signature? Its no different than water tasting different in different shaped glasses. The purpose of the cable is to pass 0's and 1's or low wattage current. as long as its thick enough to do that, it does the job. In my opinion cables are the biggest rip-off people get sucked in which provides absolutely no benefit to the sound quality.

2. For Power amp, how would it make any difference? any 2 modern amps which have the same power rating should sound the same. Are there any blind tests to prove they make any difference as well?

I have heard people say that some amps add warmth to the sound. where and how the hell this "warmth" coming from. what circuitry produces warmth in an amp?
Warmth to the sound might be a good marketing slogan, but in reality, the purpose of the amp is to amplify the sound, not add things to it, even if it were possible.


Cheers,

Saurabh

 

[BLASTO]

Speakers = Face of the sound - Everyone's face is different and has various preferences and moods.
Amplifier = Voice of the sound - Everyones voice is different, some are similar, some aren't changes through the day,
Pre = Heart of the sound - Everyones heart beats yet each are different.
Dac = Brains of the sound - Intelligence!
Cables = Muscles of the sound - Weak muscles cant perform daily tasks, gotta exercise!

The only consistent factor in this is the inconsistency of our chemical state of mind.

Hmm.. When are you coming out of the bar?

 

[corElement]

When i get my fill dammit!

 

[murali]

1. Is three any objective test to prove to non-believers like me that cables can have any impact on the sound signature? Its no different than water tasting different in different shaped glasses. The purpose of the cable is to pass 0's and 1's or low wattage current. as long as its thick enough to do that, it does the job. In my opinion cables are the biggest rip-off people get sucked in which provides absolutely no benefit to the sound quality.

2Cheers,

Saurabh

Nothing to do with this sound signature topic, but your remarks above can be analysed after looking at the following observation of one of my best and most knowledgeable friends in the audio circles (who is not a manufacturer but researches a lot with cables and accessories):

Quote: High capacitance Litz wire can cause the output stage of a Naim amplifier to oscillate or become unstable and potentially cause damage to both the amplifier and the loudspeakers. As such, a speaker cable with appropriate electrical characteristics must be used with Naim amplifiers, which is said to be a low-capacitance, high-inductance type cable such as the spaced parallel conductor design of Naim Nac A5 speaker cable.
Unquote: The above was in response to someone's issues with a Naim amplifier. The point is don't think of the cable as simply a medium of transmission of signals. Its electrical characteristics can make or break equipment.
I am not entering into another debate on cable coloration, signature etc as such controversies have been discussed several times in this forum too. However, there are some things to watch out for, like the above.

Happy listening.
murali

 

[Flash]

On a not so serious note.

This seems like a good way to get a warm signature with speaker cables

 

[dazoy]

Nothing to do with this sound signature topic, but your remarks above can be analysed after looking at the following observation of one of my best and most knowledgeable friends in the audio circles (who is not a manufacturer but researches a lot with cables and accessories):

Quote: High capacitance Litz wire can cause the output stage of a Naim amplifier to oscillate or become unstable and potentially cause damage to both the amplifier and the loudspeakers. As such, a speaker cable with appropriate electrical characteristics must be used with Naim amplifiers, which is said to be a low-capacitance, high-inductance type cable such as the spaced parallel conductor design of Naim Nac A5 speaker cable.
Unquote: The above was in response to someone's issues with a Naim amplifier. The point is don't think of the cable as simply a medium of transmission of signals. Its electrical characteristics can make or break equipment.
I am not entering into another debate on cable coloration, signature etc as such controversies have been discussed several times in this forum too. However, there are some things to watch out for, like the above.

Happy listening.
murali

Care to explain how the wire could cause damage to the amplifier in any amp but NAIM?

To me and most other people what you quoted above sounds like gibberish.

What the hell is "low-capacitance, high-inductance type cable"? Is there a high -capacitance, low-inductance type cable too? What about medium-capacitance, low-inductance?

To me, and I have all the respect your friend deserves, it all sounds like a good strategy to fool, or rather, scare people into buying NAIM cables, if they have NAIM amplifiers. Most companies do that!!! You can buy any cable that serves the purpose and is compatible with the amps and speakers.

In the end, where objectivity in the quotes? Its just your friend's opinion about some cables and amps.

Cheers,

Saurabh

 

[dazoy]

Speakers = Face of the sound - Everyone's face is different and has various preferences and moods.
Amplifier = Voice of the sound - Everyones voice is different, some are similar, some aren't changes through the day,
Pre = Heart of the sound - Everyones heart beats yet each are different.
Dac = Brains of the sound - Intelligence!
Cables = Muscles of the sound - Weak muscles cant perform daily tasks, gotta exercise!

The only consistent factor in this is the inconsistency of our chemical state of mind.

Interesting..But NOT everything has to have an analogy associated. No pun intended, but most people have sound enough brains to understand what each component does, rather than being taught like 4th grade children preparing for term exams.

On an unrelated note, would speakers not be the voice of the sound, considering they actually do produce the sound?

Cheers,

Saurabh

 

[BLASTO]

To me, and I have all the respect your friend deserves, it all sounds like a good strategy to fool, or rather, scare people into buying NAIM cables, if they have NAIM amplifiers. Most companies do that!!!

Naim 'voices' their speakers according to the cables.
They are fuzzy when it comes to partenering equipment.

What it sounds like 'to you' is immaterial. Naim is an exception though.

 

[dazoy]

Naim 'voices' their speakers according to the cables.
They are fuzzy when it comes to partenering equipment.

What it sounds like 'to you' is immaterial. Naim is an exception though.

Agreed, NAIM cables are different, because they use DIN connectors rather than RCA, But how would 2 DIN connector cables (NAIM and non NAIM) be different if they are of the same gauge?



Cheers,

Saurabh

 

[BLASTO]

Agreed, NAIM cables are different, because they use DIN connectors rather than RCA, But how would 2 DIN connector cables (NAIM and non NAIM) be different if they are of the same gauge?



Cheers,

Saurabh

Are we still talking about speaker cables?
Its speaker cabless the original post is referring to.

 

[dazoy]

Are we still talking about speaker cables?
Its speaker cabless the original post is referring to.

Hmm..May not be speaker cables, but cables none the less.

 

[corElement]

Interesting..But NOT everything has to have an analogy associated. No pun intended, but most people have sound enough brains to understand what each component does, rather than being taught like 4th grade children preparing for term exams.

On an unrelated note, would speakers not be the voice of the sound, considering they actually do produce the sound?

Cheers,

Saurabh

The whole thing was a joke dude LOL.

 

[koushik]

1. Is three any objective test to prove to non-believers like me that cables can have any impact on the sound signature? Its no different than water tasting different in different shaped glasses. The purpose of the cable is to pass 0's and 1's or low wattage current. as long as its thick enough to do that, it does the job. In my opinion cables are the biggest rip-off people get sucked in which provides absolutely no benefit to the sound quality.

I hope you have a technical background or enough understanding of the technical aspect of audio equipment and will understand what I am going to explain.
Except a super conductor, every conductor/semi-conductor has LCR(Inductance, Capacitance & Resistance) property. When we connect a wire to the speakers' terminals we are actually connecting a circuit(how simple it may be) with some value of ?, F, H. How difficult it is to understand that a component connected in series with XO circuit of speaker will effect the sound quality?!

Now, how much differences that make depends on how discerning ears you have! Simple!

 

[murali]

Hmm..May not be speaker cables, but cables none the less.

Do you believe cables have inductance, capacitance and impedance and cable manufacturers play around with these which explains why different cables sound differently in the same system?
Do you believe that the load an electrostatic speaker presents to an amplifier and speaker cables is quite different from that of conventional magnetic speakers? Do you agree that to a speaker cable the ESL appears as a capacitor while a magnetic speaker appears as a combination of a resistor and inductor?
In a speaker cable, inductance is largely determined by the area between the conductors and capacitance is highly affected by how close the conductors are to each other.
If you still do not understand why cables are different from their electrical characteristics and still stand by your belief that everything is the same, please use a MIT cable that comes with a capacitor box at one end and connect your ESL, if you own one, or if you don't, to someone else's who won't mind your blowing up his/her speakers. Based on your observations after the experiment, let us continue. Till then, bye.

murali

 

[doors666]

I hope you have a technical background or enough understanding of the technical aspect of audio equipment and will understand what I am going to explain.
Except a super conductor, every conductor/semi-conductor has LCR(Inductance, Capacitance & Resistance) property. When we connect a wire to the speakers' terminals we are actually connecting a circuit(how simple it may be) with some value of ?, F, H. How difficult it is to understand that a component connected in series with XO circuit of speaker will effect the sound quality?!

Now, how much differences that make depends on how discerning ears you have! Simple!

In any decently made cable, these LCR properties should have miniscule impact. The lcr values of a cable are really really small as compared to the rest of the circuit they are connecting to. Take the case of a speaker cable's resistance, its like 0.1 or 0.2 ohms for a few meters run, on the other end of it, there's a speaker with 8 ohm nominal impedance. Does it matter if totally its 8.1 ohms or 8.2 ohms. The crossover parts values are supposed to have a tolerance of about 10%. An interconnect has impedance of 75ohms, on the other end is an amp with input impedance of say 10,000 ohms. Do you think the amp gives a damn if its 10,075 or 10,080 ohms?

Anyway, the cable manufacturers dont claim that the difference is due to LCR values, its due to the magical properties that the cable posesses. If it was due to the LCR properties, it should be child's play to figure out which cable will do well with a given setup, all you need is an LCR meter. Why do people try a million different cables and then say, this one is the best with my setup? Also, most of the measurement freaks wont have any issue with admitting that cables make a difference if it was due to LCR values. No sir, we are no longer in the science domain, but in the that magical mystery place.

Our ears are probably one of the most inaccurate measuring device known to mankind. How do you trust your ears? it shows differences when none exist, and shows no difference when plenty exist. We cant remember the sound over a period of time it takes to switch a cable.

 

[dazoy]

I hope you have a technical background or enough understanding of the technical aspect of audio equipment and will understand what I am going to explain.
Except a super conductor, every conductor/semi-conductor has LCR(Inductance, Capacitance & Resistance) property. When we connect a wire to the speakers' terminals we are actually connecting a circuit(how simple it may be) with some value of ?, F, H. How difficult it is to understand that a component connected in series with XO circuit of speaker will effect the sound quality?!

Now, how much differences that make depends on how discerning ears you have! Simple!

Proof of the pie is in eating. Show me one objective test which proves that cables make any difference.

You can dissect it with all the technical jargon you can think of, which I am more than qualified to understand, but how does it all matter when the sound coming out of speakers is same with expensive or cheaper cables in the end.

Cheers,

 

[BLASTO]

Proof of the pie is in eating. Show me one objective test which proves that cables make any difference.

You can dissect it with all the technical jargon you can think of, which I am more than qualified to understand, but how does it all matter when the sound coming out of speakers is same with expensive or cheaper cables in the end.

Cheers,

It is not same.
What is your system config?

 

[dazoy]

Do you believe cables have inductance, capacitance and impedance and cable manufacturers play around with these which explains why different cables sound differently in the same system?
Do you believe that the load an electrostatic speaker presents to an amplifier and speaker cables is quite different from that of conventional magnetic speakers? Do you agree that to a speaker cable the ESL appears as a capacitor while a magnetic speaker appears as a combination of a resistor and inductor?
In a speaker cable, inductance is largely determined by the area between the conductors and capacitance is highly affected by how close the conductors are to each other.
If you still do not understand why cables are different from their electrical characteristics and still stand by your belief that everything is the same, please use a MIT cable that comes with a capacitor box at one end and connect your ESL, if you own one, or if you don't, to someone else's who won't mind your blowing up his/her speakers. Based on your observations after the experiment, let us continue. Till then, bye.

murali

I have a degree in Computer engineering, but please do not try to intimidate others with this technical jargon.

No, I dont believe then 2 cables with same gauge and are resaonabily well made will sound different in the same system, no matter how cheap one is and how expensive the second one is.

All I am interested in knowing is how a speaker cable would damage an amplifier, as you stated in the quote you provided.

Secondly, to me, and many others, the whole point is to enjoy the music. I am sure you get much more pleasure out of $500 cables. To my ears, 16 gauge monoprice cables sound as good as any other. I have many other interesting things to do with money than blow up on exotic cables from Finland or other far off places.


Cheers,

Saurabh

 

[dazoy]

It is not same.
What is your system config?

whats not the same?