To Bangalore FMs: Do you have a REL sub integrated into your 2-Ch or HT system?

[elangoas]

Coming to DIY, it would make sense if one has done it before or has had experience with someone else's DIY. In my case, I have no experience to tread down this path. So that's out of the equation. Anyways, I am not looking for thumping bass; just something that will round up the music experience.

I can understand your hesitation for a DIY sub as you haven't done it before.. Trust me, sealed sub is the easiest of all & of course better lower extension.. All one needs to do is, calculate volume of the enclosure according to the driver you choose.. Thats it..

More subs help for more smoother lower response at your listening position..

Accommodating more subs in the living room can be a challenge.. So yeah gotcha..

 

[elangoas]

Maybe I am putting the cart before the horse. Should I borrow a mike and use something like REW and measure my room? Is this how the LF game works?

Download the room mode calculator (excel file) and key in your room dimensions.. Resonant frequencies (according to your room dimensions) will show up, and then you can decide where to place the sub to reduce the resonance.. All this is for freq below 80 Hz, where your sub-woofer would handle them..

If you happen to measure you room with Mic and REW, the results would be identical to the above procedure.. I have done this in my room..

Fine tuning the sub by ear and playing low freq may not yield best results..

 

[raghupb]

One test is to play a sub at full range and play vocals and see if the sound is intelligible. if the drivers can reproduce it ( of course will not be as good as a regular driver) but the more it can articulate the more musical it would be.

I tried this with the existing sub. Switched off the power amps to mains.
Only the L+R full range to sub. Sub set at max crossover (200Hz).

This is a wicked idea and freaky to hear.
It is akin to those nightmares we have where voices are there but not really there.
@arj it can be used in a psychological horror movie script. It gave me chills.

Anyways the sub did voice something.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[arj]

Since the job of the sub is to augment the bass, its harmonics actually impacts the midrange. what you are hearing is what it does to augment it..

 

[raghupb]

Raghupb, in most cases, one sub is fine. I have owned the REL in the past. One was good enough. In REL, cross over as low as possible and increase vol accordingly. Pl remember bass is omnidirectional.

Very true @prem. It is becoming practically clear that in a living room anything more than one sub is simply ungainly.
Yesterday I took the full range output from preamp and fed it to sub.
The main L/R were tried at HPF off and on at various cutoff frequencies from 40-80 Hz.
The sub was tuned to LPF cutoff between 50-65 Hz (upper limit is my guess).
I found that the best cohesion was with mains HPF off and sub at about 60 and below.
The 3dB number for my speakers are 50-55Hz and 6dB number is 42 Hz. Steep cliff.

So it is gonna be one good sub going forward.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[raghupb]

Download the room mode calculator (excel file) and key in your room dimensions.. Resonant frequencies (according to your room dimensions) will show up, and then you can decide where to place the sub to reduce the resonance.. All this is for freq below 80 Hz, where your sub-woofer would handle them..

If you happen to measure you room with Mic and REW, the results would be identical to the above procedure.. I have done this in my room..

Fine tuning the sub by ear and playing low freq may not yield best results..

I have looked at this calculator. These are for cuboidal rooms andmy listening space is in one section of a larger L-shaped space.
I don't know how to plug in the dimensions for a real result. But it is very helpful to assess what frequency range can cause trouble.
Cheers,
Raghu

 

[raghupb]

Since the job of the sub is to augment the bass, its harmonics actually impacts the midrange. what you are hearing is what it does to augment it..

In my listening expts, I played a small variety of bass heavy tracks.
Since I have the control to turn off/on sub from preamp the judging is slightly easier and almost instant.

On most tracks the sub effect was non-existent until I turn it off.
When on it does bring in that bottom end support and polishes some of the mids.
I feel I am getting somewhere.

The tracks that gave my ears the best assessment were:
(Overall sound)
When A Blind Man Cries - Metallica (covering Deep Purple)
Nothing Else Matters - Metallica
Lazy - Deep Purple

(Kick drum)
Money For Nothing - Dire Straits
Nothing Else Matters - Metallica

(effect on vocals)
Jah Work - Ben Harper
Fight For Your Mind - Ben Harper
Happiest Days Of Our Lives - Pink Floyd
Radioactive Toy - Porcupine Tree
Private Investigations - Dire Straits
The above tracks have kind of mumbled/whispered vocals to begin with.
So it allowed me to assess what the extra bottom end does.
Vocals are not lost in the 'melee'. In some cases they were a bit more audible.

More experimentation today when family members are out.
Yesterday I got a silent look from HM, since I was repeatedly playing partial tracks over and over.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[arj]

..
Yesterday I got a silent look from HM, since I was repeatedly playing partial tracks over and over.

Cheers,
Raghu

Ha ha..the HM once stormed in asking "Can you at least play the whole song" ? stopped doing that with Hindi songs when she is around

 

[ktks1]

One newbie question: How/why do we only have to audition speakers and subs at a showroom with different dimensions and acoustic characteristics and decide on them for their home which doesn't match the showroom at all?

I know the process of getting more than a pair of FS speakers home is tedious and doesn't convince the family members, but there should be some way to get across this ritual How many dealers in Bengaluru allow us to audition stuff at our home and then decide?

 

[raghupb]

One newbie question: How/why do we only have to audition speakers and subs at a showroom with different dimensions and acoustic characteristics and decide on them for their home which doesn't match the showroom at all?

I know the process of getting more than a pair of FS speakers home is tedious and doesn't convince the family members, but there should be some way to get across this ritual How many dealers in Bengaluru allow us to audition stuff at our home and then decide?

Well ...
It is dealers prerogative. Speakers/subs are bulky to cart around.
Very few dealers would agree for home demo.
In the past ProFx was one dealer that used to agree for home demo for smaller speakers.
But one should show what the dealers feel as "genuine intent".
Cheers,
Raghu

 

[elangoas]

I have looked at this calculator. These are for cuboidal rooms andmy listening space is in one section of a larger L-shaped space. I don't know how to plug in the dimensions for a real result. But it is very helpful to assess what frequency range can cause trouble.

Ok. For the sake of calculating room dimension, you may consider the rectangular dimension around you listening position.. Approx 25 ft (W) x 12 ft (L) x 9.5ft? (H)..

Keying the above dimension, the resonant freq are 23Hz, 46Hz, 69Hz along the width of the room, 47Hz in the length of the room and 60Hz for the height of the room..

Since music is your priority, 23Hz & 46Hz may not apply to music.. So the remaining freq is 47Hz, 60Hz and 69hz with in the subwoofer crossover of 80 - 90 Hz..

Since your listening position is one corner of the room, i guess the better spot for subwoofer would be beside your couch, even better if you can elevate it by 1 (or) 2 ft from floor, or put it on a small table.. This way the subwoofer will be very close to your listening position and the room resonance will apply less.. You may try this with your existing sub just for an idea..

 

[sound_cycle]

One newbie question: How/why do we only have to audition speakers and subs at a showroom with different dimensions and acoustic characteristics and decide on them for their home which doesn't match the showroom at all?

Not much point. Unless you want to hear how it sounds

ince music is your priority, 23Hz & 46Hz may not apply to music.. So the remaining freq is 47Hz, 60Hz and 69hz with in the subwoofer crossover of 80 - 90 Hz..

Since your listening position is one corner of the room, i guess the better spot for subwoofer would be beside your couch, even better if you can elevate it by 1 (or) 2 ft from floor, or put it on a small table.. This way the subwoofer will be very close to your listening position and the room resonance will apply less.. You may try this with your existing sub just for an idea..

Can you please explain the thinking behind these prescriptions ?

Is there actually any consideration for what his speakers are doing or what is actually happening at the listening position. I suppose not.

Ciao
GR

 

[raghupb]

Ok. For the sake of calculating room dimension, you may consider the rectangular dimension around you listening position.. Approx 25 ft (W) x 12 ft (L) x 9.5ft? (H)..

Keying the above dimension, the resonant freq are 23Hz, 46Hz, 69Hz along the width of the room, 47Hz in the length of the room and 60Hz for the height of the room..

Since music is your priority, 23Hz & 46Hz may not apply to music.. So the remaining freq is 47Hz, 60Hz and 69hz with in the subwoofer crossover of 80 - 90 Hz..

Since your listening position is one corner of the room, i guess the better spot for subwoofer would be beside your couch, even better if you can elevate it by 1 (or) 2 ft from floor, or put it on a small table.. This way the subwoofer will be very close to your listening position and the room resonance will apply less.. You may try this with your existing sub just for an idea..

Thanks for the explanation and walk through @elangoas, I will give it a try again as you have suggested.
I have decided to give the existing sub back to my parents when a suitable new sub comes home.

Clearly foresee 4 usage scenarios in my home:
1a) Music: sitting on the couch in front of the speakers (a true listening session, sub on)
1b) Music: sitting diagonally across the room working (background listening, sub off)
2a) Movies: family viewing during normal hours (LFE preferred, sub on)
2b) Movies: family viewing during late night (LFE not preferred, sub off)

In scenarios 1a and 2a, I have been experimenting with the existing sub.
The placement is beside/behind the right speaker. I am getting acceptable performance.
Acceptable in the sense, room is not misbehaving and sub is not in your face.
For music it is actually complementing the mains as best it can (maybe down to 40 Hz or slightly lower).
For movies there is some whack, thump and rumble. There is a switch on the sub that says movies/music.
But really don't know if there is a difference in performance.

I am also trying to get a REL T5/i for a home demo. This will give me a general sense of what REL can do or can't do.
Let's see how this goes; will update if/when I hear it out at home.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[sound_cycle]

Thanks for the explanation and walk through

Getting the REL t9 integrated was four steps. 1) finding the best position for bass, after finding the phase that works, all this with pink noise and not music - real world, power, cabling, furniture, right of way etc (and afaik the t5 is downfiring so elevation is not useful), use the crawl. 2) getting the best orientation 3) getting the crossover dialled in 4) setting the volume.

The manual explains it.

Ciao
GR

 

[raghupb]

Getting the REL integrated

Not there yet @sound_cycle
Hoping to wing a home demo with a smaller model to extrapolate and decide on a bigger model of the same series.
Cheers,
Raghu

 

[elangoas]

Can you please explain the thinking behind these prescriptions ?

The more the sub is closer to you, lesser would be the effects of the room and you hear more of the sub..

I have two of my subs positioned behind my viewing screen and inbetween the L-C-R speakers, at ear level.. They sound more prominent than the other two on ceiling..

Is there actually any consideration for what his speakers are doing or what is actually happening at the listening position. I suppose not.

More of what would happen at his listening position, based on subwoofer placement (below 80hz)..

 

[sound_cycle]

The more the sub is closer to you, lesser would be the effects of the room and you hear more of the sub.

No.

That is *not* the idea. I don't want to hear my sub.

I dont agree with your view.

Ciao
GR

 

[ktks1]

Well ...
It is dealers prerogative. Speakers/subs are bulky to cart around.
Very few dealers would agree for home demo.
In the past ProFx was one dealer that used to agree for home demo for smaller speakers.
But one should show what the dealers feel as "genuine intent".
Cheers,
Raghu

Agreed. It is a hassle for the dealers. But my question is, what if the purchased equipment doesn't suit our homes?

I'm asking this because the upgrade bug has bit me and I'm saving up for it.

 

[raghupb]

Agreed. It is a hassle for the dealers. But my question is, what if the purchased equipment doesn't suit our homes?

I'm asking this because the upgrade bug has bit me and I'm saving up for it.

It is a very valid concern. I think there is a method to the madness.
1. Choose the speakers that sound best to your ears and room (demo room or home they will the same sound signature)
1a. The only time things go horribly wrong are when they are too big or too small for the room/space
2. Amplification suitable for the above speakers (less dependent on room)
2a. Decide on an integrated or AVR or separates (not room dependent, only wallet dependent)
3. All the other stuff like sources, subwoofer, streamers, cables, furniture, etc
3a. Subs are room dependent (see point 1a above)

This is why multiple auditions are necessary before putting money down.
If you can't audition the exact same speakers/electronics combo, look for local FMs who have similar setups.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[elangoas]

The placement is beside/behind the right speaker. I am getting acceptable performance.
Acceptable in the sense, room is not misbehaving and sub is not in your face.

Ok.. That placement is in the corner of the room i believe.. What sounds acceptable bass, might be different when you happen to measure it.. The bass peaks can be in excess of 20 dB.. Same happened in my room, when i had dual subs in the front room corners..

Anyways, try diff placement once you get the sub..

No.

That is *not* the idea. I don't want to hear my sub.

I dont agree with your view.

Perfectly fine to disagree.. When the subwoofer's SPL is matched to that of mains (L/R), you won't hear the sub prominently than mains.. Infact, even after the level matching is done by Audyssey in my AVR, i liked the increased subwoofer level slightly..