To Bangalore FMs: Do you have a REL sub integrated into your 2-Ch or HT system?

[elangoas]

With REL T5i, the best performance was out of a corner. Guess it takes some reinforcement from walls.

Right, a corner will help a single sealed sub gain more SPL..

I liked sealed more than ported.. Hence, added more and moved them away from corners.. None of the 4 subs are in corner of the room.. Adding more subs, has given more SPL.. Just sharing my experience and am not urging you to go more subs ..

 

[raghupb]

@elangoas
Don't worry. I won't go commando on more subs.
Dual itself will attract all kinds of wrath at home.
The loudest speaker in the house will be activated
It is not worth the risk.
Cheers,
Raghu

 

[Srinivasa Rao]

The loudest speaker in the house will be activated
It is not worth the risk.

Loved this...

 

[raghupb]

Update:
REL T9i landed last evening.
Irony is I have to wait a few more days to even open it up
Just too busy with work.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[square_wave]

Did you open it ?
Ancient audiophile but a brand new T9i makes me an eager kid waiting to see that chocolate box open.

 

[raghupb]

Did you open it ?
Ancient audiophile but a brand new T9i makes me an eager kid waiting to see that chocolate box open.

I understand. But the damn thing is this week has been very busy work wise.
The pain is that I work from home and have to keep staring at the package when I take office calls.

Today, I will attempt to at least open it, hook it and follow REL's suggestion on break in.
Anyways, it is a long weekend; so should have enough time to get a first cut dial-in.

Forest Gump moment has not happened yet!!
Cheers,
Raghu

 

[liverpool_for_life]

Just too busy with work.

Wot?! Time for the mother of all letters: As I’m suffering from sub upgraditis...

 

[raghupb]

Ah... Finally!! I was able to unbox the unit and play with it today towards eventual integration.
This is a long post .... (ignore or skip if it don't interest you)

Logistics and other points
Firstly, great packaging by India distributor (in Mumbai) to have packed it well so that it reaches Bangalore safe.
And a shout-out to the local dealer (in Bangalore) to have delivered the unit to my home ahead of promised time.
Please don't ask for pricing details, I will definitely not reveal it on open forum. Business ethics (shoot me).
This deal came about in a circuitous way, so please understand the reality of how these things work.
PM me and I will connect you with the Bangalore dealer, and you can take it forward from there.

What's in the box
- a big dabba
- 8 feet power cable
- 30 feet high level cable (with neutrik connector)
- instruction manual



Associated chain (today's experiments)
- Parasound NC 200Pre (preamp with DAC on board)
- Parasound NC 275v2 (power amp)
- KEF R300s on Sound Foundation stands
- cables; whatever was there in my home earlier
- CCA and laptop (sources)
- see this thread (https://www.hifivision.com/threads/parasound-new-classic-range-any-owners-here.74994/)

Break-in process
Informed the neighbors as a courtsey (especially the guys down below; I hear music, they hear dub-dub-dub)
Followed REL's suggested method (it is there on their website)
Used a bunch of rhythmic, repetitive, and bassy tunes from my library, Spotify and YouTube.
Gave the cones (active and passive) and amp circuits a good, moderate to high-ish volume workout for about 3-4 hours.
After this the SPL did improve quite a bit; REL claims 3-4 dB, I really don't know.
The sub was positioned in such a way that the bass energy was radiating into my balcony most of the time.
The main speakers were playing reasonably low; the sub level was turned up in the preamp to max.
Yes, the preamp allows for this; thanks Parasound.
On the unit itself, the volume and crossover levels were between 12-2 o'clock progressively.
Imagine 3-4 hours of such sound emanating from living room.




Wife is officially sick of boom-boom in the house
Looping through the same tune sets made her sequester herself in the bedroom and snigger.
She knows I'm not straight upstairs when it comes to music systems and performance.
There is a pertinent question though; when are all these going inside them cubby holes?
Soon, I have committed; I think I have a week at max; otherwise I have to find rental accommodation.

The dial-in
I stuck the sub in a corner as REL literature suggested.
These are sub-bass units as claimed by REL (tomato-tomaahto potato-potaahto, I guess)
Something about using structural boundaries to enhance LF.
The cable used is the low level subwoofer cable.
The high level connection will be attempted with my alternate chain soon (see signature).



The sub level is set to 12 o'clock. Crossover is at 10 o'clock (I think).
Enough for today. I decided to enjoy the music with single malt.
Have a reggae playlist from Spotify playing as I type.
It is sounding good. There is minor adjustments to boom, localization to be tackled with.
But all of these for another day.

Verdict
I went through the process of what-if, why-not, how-to, which-brand, and finally #%*^-it I'll get the damn thing and figure it out.
Now that the unit is playing in my listening space, I don't regret the addition/replacement and costs/logistics associated.
I still haven't played out high-level, HT/movies and not critically dialed it in.
Will seek out help here from local FMs. More to come when I do these experiments; stay tuned if interested.
I will say this much, if you can afford it, get a sub and integrate it for music; it is worth it, specially if you have standmounts.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[raghupb]

I would like to thank the following forum members (in no particular order).
This journey would not have reached this positive logical conclusion without your help and inputs.

@anirudhchandrashekar - goading me to try out new stuff and helping with multiple auditions
@arj - nudging me gently towards sub for music; "consider REL"
@sound_cycle - hands on experience/impressions with REL T9i and local contacts
@square_wave - informative videos and other material
@captainsubtext @noblejose - for offering an audtion with REL T5i; did not happen though
@sandyjhyderabad - contrary opinion and alternative solutons
@liverpool_for_life - distinction between what is HT and 2-ch sub performance
@elangoas - offering suggestions for DIY methods
@sandeepss - unbridled humor (dual subs; you know what I'm referring to)
@drkrack - technical explanations
@prem - occasional pearls of wisdom; you know stuff about such things
@newlash09 @MaSh @Shylo - endlessly listening to rants about my rig; it will not end anytime soon

It has been a fruitful journey with great satisfaction at the end of it.
Thanks guys for all the help and thank you HiFiVision for a wonderful platform to exchange viewpoints.
Local FMs are welcome to drop in at a mutually convenient date/time to hear my rig.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[mpw]

2.1 can be a good stereo to have...

You might find to sub to complement bigger speakers at well should you change the main speakers at a later date.

In the end it's not about the LF extension but more about adding scale to the music.

Regards

 

[raghupb]

2.1 can be a good stereo to have...

You might find to sub to complement bigger speakers at well should you change the main speakers at a later date.

In the end it's not about the LF extension but more about adding scale to the music.

Regards

Yes. The LF extension is there, but more importantly the sub adds that scale as you rightly said.
Cheers,
Raghu

 

[Ashenden]

Hi Raghu, congrats on the REL! Thanks for the detailed chronicle on your hunt and dispelling myths on using subs for music. I’ve bookmarked this thread for the future, in case I go for REL subs. Best wishes

 

[raghupb]

High-level connect (update):
Today I attempted the much touted (as per REL) high-level connect capability using the sub.

Associated chain:
Spotify --> CCA (optical) -- >Parasound NC200 (DAC only) --> Lyrita DHT preamp --> AKSA55 power amp --> KEF R300s + REL T9i

The Neutrik Speakon cable is provided by REL. This is a good thing for end user.
The wires were fastened to the amp's speaker binding posts as suggested in the instruction manual.
The other end went to the sub; low-level subwoofer cable from Parasound NC200 pre was disconnected.
Cannot and should never use both high and low level concurrently.

The dial-in (yet again)
Without change in sub placement/position or knob setting from the previous experiment, there was a noticeable difference.
The SPL was higher and more boomy. This made me dial down the crossover and output knobs.
Either I got it wrong the other day or there is some truth to REL's Active Bass Controller.
Nice thing is the these knobs have click movements, but no numbers. Easy to remember the click up/down count and trust ears.
After about 10-15 mins of knob fiddling and minor placement/position tweaks the sound was cohesive again.

Verdict
I felt an improvement in overall sound quality; started with reggae music.
Discovered this artist Ini Kamoze during subwoofer break in tracks (pretty cool stuff, if you like reggae).
Other usual suspects were Metallica, Grateful Dead, Ben Harper, Eagles, etc.
Then I decided to have another set of ears listen and give independent opinion.
Asked my boy to sit at MLP and tell me what he felt with sub off/on.
He came begrudgingly; "Now what is my old man up to?" look on his face.
Expecting him to choose some hip-hop or heavy metal, I was surprised he picked Joan Jett
The song started playing with sub on and then I turned it off midway.
Immediately, he remarked; "What happened to the drums?"
So I am getting somewhere in the game.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[insane79]

Rels are lovely for music & good enough for movies. Offcourse the HT series is only for movies.

Take your time in tuning it & enjoy the result. I enjoyed tuning mine to the Nad avr.


Cheers.

 

[raghupb]

Well, well ....
Some magic is beginning to happen at my home.
My 15-year old boy was under the weather today, so he asked if he could hear music on the "system".
I switched on the tubes, amp, sub and told him to Spotify away.
I always thought the guy listens to a whole lot of hip-hop, rap and metal.

This evening he has pleasantly surprised me.
Joan Jett, Bonnie Tyler, Whitney Houston, ABBA, Simon & Garfunkel, Queen, Aha, Duran Duran ...
... basically a playlist of 80s hits

He likes what the sub brings to the game. In his exact words, "It opens up songs and music"
I gave him the necessary 2-minute "phukat gyaan" about sound, frequencies, tonality and harmonies and then shut up
Have an office call to take now; will let him enjoy!!

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[liverpool_for_life]

My 15-year old boy was under the weather today, so he asked if he could hear music on the "system".

Awesome! This is what it's all about in the end: Music for the soul.

 

[raghupb]

Listening update:

This evening I have the home to myself. So decided to indulge in some music, beer and food.
The post is not about REL per se; more about subs in a 2-ch setup and general rambling.

In a different thread @prem mentioned something that was completely left field.
He said with a good subwoofer or sub-bass system you hear the venue.
It piqued my curiosity and I read up a bit more about this aspect.
The home demo and the eventual buy made it clear that sub brings LF extension, scale, etc.

I expect the drum kick, the bass guitar, the upright bass to shine with a sub. Paid money just for this.
Today I put on a playlist of Simon and Garfunkel. One hardly expects thump/whack in their music.
Then some tracks played, that were live in the Central Park or Madison Square Garden.
These really caught my attention; the venue sound that was definitely missing from my "cute" stand mounts.
The addition of a sub has made it possible; so if you are curious and can afford it, please explore.

On a general note, the chain in play is the alternate one (see signature)
Lyrita Tube pre + AKSA power mainly. These companies are not well known commercially.
But boy, the sonics they bring to the room and experience is definitely worth a shout out.
@viren bakhshi is on HFV; take a bow sir!! The Lyrita DHT is one sweet preamp.
Hugh Dean who designed the AKSA needs a praiseworthy applause too.
The way this amp voices the music is very nice.
And the person who procured this kit and assembled it, so that it eventually lands in my home.

All in all, the alternate chain is surprising me a whole lot more than the main rig (more expensive ).
To all you DIY guys and punters on the forum, you know your stuff. Keep on rocking!!

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[square_wave]

Lovely. It is a journey. That is the fun. Is Aksa still in the game ? I almost assembled one many years ago but then I got a great deal on a brand new odyssey stratos. Still remember my conversations with Hugh. He is one of the best amp designers out there.

A very good track to check "quality of bass" is Ahmed Jamal's Chicago revisited on telarc. The track "bellows"...7.50 minute onwards is a trip in bass. A well integrated bass unit will make sure the standing bass is "fully seen" and "in place" in the venue and cleanly communicating with zero mud.

 

[raghupb]

Lovely. It is a journey. That is the fun. Is Aksa still in the game ? I almost assembled one many years ago but then I got a great deal on a brand new odyssey stratos. Still remember my conversations with Hugh. He is one of the best amp designers out there.

A very good track to check "quality of bass" is Ahmed Jamal's Chicago revisited on telarc. The track "bellows"...7.50 minute onwards is a trip in bass. A well integrated bass unit will make sure the standing bass is "fully seen" and "in place" in the venue and cleanly communicating with zero mud.

AKSA55 and the follow on updates Nirvana and LifeForce updates are discontinued.
Aspen amplifiers are still in business. There are newer models though.
Unlike AKSA, which was an assembly kit, the amps now are pre-assembled modules.
They will need a transformer, enclosure, terminals, and some basic connections, I guess.

Account Suspended

The site has some details.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[raghupb]

Spent pretty much a 4-5 hours listening to good old hard rock.
Till a couple of months ago it used to be a few songs here and there before fatigue set in.

Belted albums from Led Zepp, a band I've always considered the one who defined what hard rock is all about.
Sifted through Deep Purple, GnR, Rainbow, AC/DC.
As the evening wore on Dire Straits and now Simon & Garfunkel.

The sub (and a new pre/pwr chain) has given a new lease of life to bands I used to love when I was a younger man.
Cheers,
Raghu