Why Avr so bad for music?

[doors666]

My question was the difference which I found when using Emotiva UMC1 and PM1 while using the same amp.

Both are doing a very competent job as per you. when you compare two preamps, one is bound to come on top. I am sure emotiva will beat quite a few stand alone preamps.

Where did I mention that if I have the option of having only an AVR, I will not listen to it?

that comment was general in nature and not directed at you.

If it is that simple, I should get the same performance as a stereo component, which I am not able to get. As far as my experience the DAC and the pre are the main contributors for the difference.

Again, this is not a fair comparison, onkyo AVR and a quad amp. A fair comparison will be an onkyo avr and an onkyo amp or a quad amp and a quad avr (if they make one).

A 20k amp with a 30-35k avr should be compared. The fact cant be ignored that there is a lot of money going other circuitry of the avr. While from a customer perspective it might be correct since he has to purchase one, when you compare a 30k avr and a 30k amp, you are in effect comparing a 15k amp and a 30k amp.

Dont use the preamp and DAC inside the AVR for stereo listening. External decoder inputs bypass the preamp. There still might be volume control depending upon the model. The idea is that all the decoding and processing has already taken place (e.g. 5 channel analog output from a bluray player), its treated as pure analog input and straightaway amplified. Check user manual of the avr. Try external decoder inputs in pure direct mode and see if you notice an improvement.

Most of the decent AVRs will give enough power output for stereo applications, with plenty to spare for headroom. Many really good stereo amps will not have a 400 VA trafo at their disposal.

 

[rishiguru]

Most of the decent AVRs will give enough power output for stereo applications, with plenty to spare for headroom. Many really good stereo amps will not have a 400 VA trafo at their disposal.

Yep, this is another valid point. Say for example any 80 + 80 watts @ 8 ohms stereo amp will come with a 300 VA trafo at best. I mean the high end ones.

Where as my Yamaha DSP-A2070 AV amplifier rated at 80 + 80 @ 8 ohms in stereo comes with a 800Va trafo and provides a dynamic headroom of 2.1 db.

My Yamaha DSP-Z9 AV amplifier comes with a 1550 VA trafo complemented with 56000uF of capacitance which will be used in stereo mode, so even if it is rated at just 170 + 170 watts @ 8 ohms you still get 520 + 520 watts of dynamic power at 2 ohms!!!

 

[cmsajith]

Say for example any 80 + 80 watts @ 8 ohms stereo amp will come with a 300 VA trafo at best. I mean the high end ones.

SO what you mean to say, having a very powerful trafo we are ensured with a very pure o/p? I can add a 1kva trafo to my onkyo 606, will I get the same performance as a stereo amp?

To me power is also a factor, but the most important ones are the dac and pre, esp pre which was the only difference in the UMC1 and PM1 test.

@doors666

when you compare two preamps, one is bound to come on top.

Then what is this whole discussion about, only to use the power section of the AVR?

Common, do we need to spent 4 times the cost of a decent stereo amp on an AVR to get an good amp and invest in a DAC / preamp for 2 channel music?

you are in effect comparing a 15k amp and a 30k amp.

I had compared Nakamichi RE-10 with Onkyo 606, Onkyo is nowhere near to Nak.

External decoder inputs bypass the preamp.

I think you are confused b/n the decoder and the preamp. In simple terms, Preamp's duty is to increase the line power to a desired power so that power amp can pickup. if you skip this the power amp cannot work unless it has a very low i/p sensitivity. I dont know of any AVR which allows skipping the pre amp section since this option can fail in some conditions, correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Sudhir Wadkar]

Hi,

AVR & Amplifier are different w.r.t the sound reproduction intended (and their internal designs). AVR main application is to deliver Video + Sound (2.1 / 5.1 / 7.1 ect.) in the playback. While, amplifiers are dedicated to deliver 2-ch. Stereo sound. Therefore most of the AVRs may NOT deliver the expected 2-ch stereo sound just like dedicated stereo-amps (as manufacturers do not implement similar circuitry).

Simply, I want to say a 125cc Scooter will NOT give pickup just like 125cc racer Bick!

Why compare apples to oranges? Forget about AVR if you expect good stereo sound.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Setup: Samsung 32LED + Onkyo-HTS3300, Xtreamer / Paradigm Titans Monitors + Denon-PMA-510AE + Asus Xonar Essence STX.

 

[rishiguru]

SO what you mean to say, having a very powerful trafo we are ensured with a very pure o/p?

cmsajith I was talking about dynamic power and not about SQ. All knows the benefits of dynamic headroom.

do we need to spent 4 times the cost of a decent stereo amp on an AVR to get an good amp and invest in a DAC / preamp for 2 channel music.

To me music is not limited to 2 channels only, it comes in 5.1 channels as well. No idea about 7.1 channel BD music though.

 

[cmsajith]

cmsajith I was talking about dynamic power and not about SQ. All knows the benefits of dynamic headroom.

I am still asking if I change the trafo of the Onkyo 606 will I get the dynamic power \ headroom required?

So for music are we after power only, what will we do for the SQ?

 

[neutral]

A discussion like this is ridiculous.

Folks who pursue pure sound are a demographic with a completely different mindset. The best systems which are setup according to that mindset can produce magic for pure music reproduction. This cannot be reproduced in a surround system with even if they come with super high end processors and supremely calibrated rooms and all that. And I have heard some state of the art surround setups. Even state of the art DSP come with its own set of problems. I personally know some folks who have done the journey and came back full circle.

State of the art surround rooms produce a different kind of magic which do not appeal to 2 channel purists.

These are two different paths populated by two different kinds of people. No wonder many of the serious 2 channel guys are not participating in this thread. The ones who participated beat hasty retreat.

 

[krell]

hi, the general statement of "AVR so bad for music"may not be the true to all respects. it may depends on the quality of the AVR that you are using.
in my case i am using MARANTZ SR14EX Mk2 for both two channel music as well as home cinema viewing. i never felt the Marantz is lacking any dynamics or musical performance when compared to dedicated two channel music.
i had SANSUI AU-D11, SANSUI AU-717,pioneer SA9800 dedicated stereo amps. so i had a chance to compare directly between marantz and the rest of the stereo amps.most of the times both are performing well or equal. but the built in DAC in marantz and one box solution makes me to use marantz more frequent.
just my opinion.

 

[doors666]

@doors666

Then what is this whole discussion about, only to use the power section of the AVR?

Yeah there is confusion.
If a person loves mostly music, go for amp. for movie lovers, go for avr.
This thread is for people who love both and can afford only one and want to listen to good music. How do you make the most of the situation. e.g. Use your htpc sound card to external decoder inputs, your pc is your dac and preamp. Use pure direct and you are only using the avr as a power amp.

Common, do we need to spent 4 times the cost of a decent stereo amp on an AVR to get an good amp and invest in a DAC / preamp for 2 channel music?

Let me as this to you the other way around. You expect the manufacturer to give an avr for say 40k, give the sound quality of a 40k stereo amp, and also throw in a DAC, a preamp, video switching circuit, a much larger trafo, multichannel outputs, dolby etc patented techs for free.:lol:

I had compared Nakamichi RE-10 with Onkyo 606, Onkyo is nowhere near to Nak.

An onkyo stereo amp also will be no where close to the Nak. It only means that nak makes better gear than onkyo, doesnt make all AVRs inferior to all stereo amps. An arcam AVR will beat a denon/marantz stereo amp. Doesnt make all AVRs superior.

I think you are confused b/n the decoder and the preamp. In simple terms, Preamp's duty is to increase the line power to a desired power so that power amp can pickup. if you skip this the power amp cannot work unless it has a very low i/p sensitivity. I dont know of any AVR which allows skipping the pre amp section since this option can fail in some conditions, correct me if I am wrong.

I am pretty sure that the decoder inputs are straight away amplified without touching anything. isnt that what you want. check your manual.

Thats a preamp with a gain, which you would use if your source is not able to supply the required levels. this is not all that common with modern equipment. most of the cd players and sound cards have enough output to directly drive an amp, assuming there is a volume control somewhere. There are tons of preamps without gain e.g. B1. Most of the amps also dont have issues dealing with sources directly, some do like class d audio cda series (very low input impedance, some 3.3k iirc).

a preamp is something which provides all or some of these - gain to raise signal to amp level, input selection, impedance matching, volume control, i might have forgotten something.

 

[rishiguru]

Common, do we need to spent 4 times the cost of a decent stereo amp on an AVR to get an good amp and invest in a DAC / preamp for 2 channel music?

Let me as this to you the other way around. You expect the manufacturer to give an avr for say 40k, give the sound quality of a 40k stereo amp, and also throw in a DAC, a preamp, video switching circuit, a much larger trafo, multichannel outputs, dolby etc patented techs for free.:lol:

The entire point of comparing equally priced stereo amps and AV amps are baseless. Fair judgement in terms of sound quality can only be reached if the AV amp cost 4x as much.

In return it will be a one box solution, give the user the freedom to listen not only to stereo, but also DVD and BD discs containing multi-channel high quality audio content. One has to remember stereo also happens to be multi-channel.

Sometimes i wonder what would have happened if mono music was still in existence. Then the so called "purist" lovers should have claimed "Why stereo amps are so bad for music?"

They would have claimed to reach this "pure" conclusion after comparing equally priced "pure" mono amps with "filled to the gills with impurities" stereo amps and found stereo is multi-channel where as mono amps handling a single channel contains even fewer circuitry which is a "purist" amp approach and thus have significantly better SQ since they are not EM field generators.

No offense to anyone.

 

[neutral]

Sometimes i wonder what would have happened if mono music was still in existence. Then the so called "purist" lovers should have claimed "Why stereo amps are so bad for music?"

They would have claimed to reach this "pure" conclusion after comparing equally priced "pure" mono amps with "filled to the gills with impurities" stereo amps and found stereo is multi-channel where as mono amps handling a single channel contains even fewer circuitry which is a "purist" amp approach and thus have significantly better SQ since they are not EM field generators.

No offense to anyone.

Completely wrong assumption and comparison mate

Quality :
What screws up AVRs is not the number of channels. It is the manifold engineering and design compromises from a purist design perspective. Ask any capable amplifier designer and he should be able to give insight into this. You could try hanging around on any high end diy forums where many such designers hang around. Unnecessary features which are built into it which adds no value for music reproduction but adds many sins.

Number of channels :
If multichannel was able to provide better insight into music, the market would have already moved on. It has not.

 

[manoj.p]

Number of channels :
If multichannel was able to provide better insight into music, the market would have already moved on. It has not.

Since the market has moved to itunes and MP3's, does that mean it provides better insight into music? Many times, things work more because of convenience, rather than quality.

 

[thatguy]

Quality :
What screws up AVRs is not the number of channels. It is the manifold engineering and design compromises from a purist design perspective. Ask any capable amplifier designer and he should be able to give insight into this. You could try hanging around on any high end diy forums where many such designers hang around. Unnecessary features which are built into it which adds no value for music reproduction but adds many sins.

Number of channels :
If multichannel was able to provide better insight into music, the market would have already moved on. It has not.

Will you be able to tell, on only hearing the sound, whether it is coming from an AVR or a two channel amplifier?

 

[neutral]

Will you be able to tell, on only hearing the sound, whether it is coming from an AVR or a two channel amplifier?

Silly question. Yes ! From the next house

 

[thatguy]

Silly question. Yes ! From the next house

Which city are you in? Will you be willing to put money where your mouth is?

Guys, here is a person who claims he can tell the amplification type from the next house. Time to lay the debate to rest and maybe make or lose some money. Anyone for bets?

 

[neutral]

@that guy,

You can try it out yourself. I have no time for silly games.

Perfectly Position a pair of reference grade speakers in a good listening room. Install state of the art or studio grade source gear and cabling. Play high definition 2 channel audio or Vinyl.

Now A / B a reference grade AVR in direct mode and reference grade preamp and power amp in this system. You will be able to hear the difference in the next house. In your own house, it will be too obvious; there is no need for an AB.

 

[captrajesh]

cables, blind testing in the usual method we will be flogging a dead horse if we go down that path again !

You seem to be a pure surround sound guy who looks at sound from a completely different angle than what many of us do

our experiences are different hence our conclusions differ. So i desist.

....................

 

[doors666]

@that guy,

You can try it out yourself. I have no time for silly games.

Perfectly Position a pair of reference grade speakers in a good listening room. Install state of the art or studio grade source gear and cabling. Play high definition 2 channel audio or Vinyl.

Now A / B a reference grade AVR in direct mode and reference grade preamp and power amp in this system. You will be able to hear the difference in the next house. In your own house, it will be too obvious; there is no need for an AB.

A reference grade AVR will be smart enough to switch off all additional circuitry that is not needed. A few cards present in the same chassis that are not even powered on wont make a difference. It will also have a class A amplifier, along with a much larger transformer and caps than a stereo amp, owing to the need to support multichannel.

Since you keep saying ref grade, are you saying it wont be the case if the equipment is not reference grade. With ref grade amps, its much harder to differentiate between them, since they both will be excellent and very similar.

From your statements, its clear you have not tried it yourself but just doing guesswork.

 

[rishiguru]

Since you keep saying ref grade, are you saying it wont be the case if the equipment is not reference grade.

Point to be noted.

 

[neutral]

@doors and rishi,

A few turned off cards and larger transformers do not make a great amplifier design. There is so much more to it mate.

Yes, comparison between some random stereo amplifier and a high quality avr will turn the tide in favor of the AVR. So no generalizations.

Currently there is no one-box AVR in the market which can compete with state of the art stereo amplifiers for pure audio quality. They do not even come close. The reason is that the market does not exist.

There are multi-channel power amplifiers which are very high quality and pushing the boundaries in sound quality. They are usually made by purist amplifier manufacturing companies though. They are used in state of the art multi-channel installations for music and movies with high end processors.