Why Avr so bad for music?

[krell]

"Currently there is no one-box AVR in the market which can compete with state of the art stereo amplifiers for pure audio quality. They do not even come close."
very bold statement. may not true in all cases.
i want to tell you my own experience. i auditioned both MARANTZ SR14MK2 and Marantz PM17MK2 in my house with my Yamaha NS1000M speakers.the verdict, the two channel audio from SR14(AVR)is much Controlled and than the integrated amp, and finally i purchase SR14.two channel integrated amps may be good to best but not all the AVRs are not either bad or worse.
just my openion

 

[marsilians]

Its not fair to compare AVRs to stand-alone pre- and power-amps for 2 channel audio. AVRs are meant to provide a breadth of applications in a one-box setup at a cost effective price. So no matter how much we compare and discuss, it will not lead to any significant conclusion. The AVRs esp those released over past couple of years do their job for what they were intended tremendously well.

If anyone is really upto it and keen to develop a good 2 channel system then separates are a way to go. Or even an AVR with power amp drving front speakers will sound better.

 

[rishiguru]

@doors and rishi,

Currently there is no one-box AVR in the market which can compete with state of the art stereo amplifiers for pure audio quality.

neutral no offence, but could you kindly describe what does this word "pure" stands for in terms of audio quality?

I am a novice, so I do not understand it.

 

[neutral]

neutral no offence, but could you kindly describe what does this word "pure" stands for in terms of audio quality?

I am a novice, so I do not understand it.

The purer the system, there will be lesser veils between you and the musician. Forget measurements, this is the most important factor. This is what separates the darzeels from the emotivas. Superior amplifier design !

However, a perfectly optimsed, tuned and well matched music system is required to create pure sound .It is all part of a chain.

 

[Santy]

Pure audio means Natural sound... something like this hyeah:

Sorry this thread badly needed a break! hyeah:

 

[manoj.p]

Pure audio means Natural sound... something like this hyeah:

Sorry this thread badly needed a break! hyeah:

From an audiophile's perspective:

• 
  *Your source is a Zune player.
  *The cables are stock cables.
  *There is no separate amp.
  *Source is probably playing MP3.
  *It is not state of the art.
  *Can't see the speaker brand. So unless, we prove the brand name, it can't be reference grade.

Sorry, it can't be Pure Audio. :yahoo:

PS: No offence, but couldn't resist.

 

[manoj.p]

@that guy,

You can try it out yourself. I have no time for silly games.

Perfectly Position a pair of reference grade speakers in a good listening room. Install state of the art or studio grade source gear and cabling. Play high definition 2 channel audio or Vinyl.

Now A / B a reference grade AVR in direct mode and reference grade preamp and power amp in this system. You will be able to hear the difference in the next house. In your own house, it will be too obvious; there is no need for an AB.

Well, I would really love to do this silly game. I would like to get Reference grade speakers in a room. Will try to do a good job of set up up the listening room. Now, how will I know the speakers are reference grade? By going with the brand name? Now, granted if I go by the brand name, How will I know that after I set it up in my room, it's really reference grade setup? By knowing that I bought good components? Or really doing some measurements? Cause if I know correctly, reference means a standard and you can only compare by benchmarking against it. But then, later you say to forget the measurements as that's not the important factor.

The purer the system, there will be lesser veils between you and the musician. Forget measurements, this is the most important factor. This is what separates the darzeels from the emotivas. Superior amplifier design !

However, a perfectly optimsed, tuned and well matched music system is required to create pure sound .It is all part of a chain.

And in the same quote you again say "Optimised, tuned". Now, again how do I optimize or tune the system without know what to optimize for? How will I know I need to tune, unless I have a measurement thing? If I tune, will it still be pure? If I do this by just listening or feeling for it, then can I still call that as reference and pure? (I would love to proclaim that I have a golden ear, my system is reference and Pure)

I am at loss here. Please enlighten me, so I can follow on your footsteps to audiophile nirvana of pure, magical listening experience without any veils.

 

[neutral]

Well, I would really love to do this silly game. I would like to get Reference grade speakers in a room. Will try to do a good job of set up up the listening room. Now, how will I know the speakers are reference grade? By going with the brand name? Now, granted if I go by the brand name, How will I know that after I set it up in my room, it's really reference grade setup? By knowing that I bought good components? Or really doing some measurements? Cause if I know correctly, reference means a standard and you can only compare by benchmarking against it. But then, later you say to forget the measurements as that's not the important factor.


And in the same quote you again say "Optimised, tuned". Now, again how do I optimize or tune the system without know what to optimize for? How will I know I need to tune, unless I have a measurement thing? If I tune, will it still be pure? If I do this by just listening or feeling for it, then can I still call that as reference and pure? (I would love to proclaim that I have a golden ear, my system is reference and Pure)

I am at loss here. Please enlighten me, so I can follow on your footsteps to audiophile nirvana of pure, magical listening experience without any veils.

Sir...you need to travel this road yourself. There is no shortcut. You will or you will not depending on your calling.

You will need to travel on a different road only if you find the road on which you are in is leading nowhere like what many of us found out. If it is meaningful for you, please stay on the course.

 

[manoj.p]

Sir...you need to travel this road yourself. There is no shortcut. You will or you will not depending on your calling.

You will need to travel on a different road only if you find the road on which you are in is leading nowhere like what many of us found out. If it is meaningful for you, please stay on the course.

Well, I love the answers when posed with real questions. Its easy to tell of fancy magic land, but alas, it may not exist. It does exist in the heart and mind though.

You will or you will not depending on your calling.

I think this is the ultimate truth. People are getting results based on their calling. IMO, anything based on calling may not be real. If there are REAL test and results, everyone WILL see it, irrespective of the calling.


Btw, Just to be on topic - Love the way the OP made a statement, lighted a fire and stepped back. I am sure he is enjoying all the arguments and having a big laugh. Didn't see any post from him afterwards.

 

[Vijay_s]

Picture posted above is of bad taste. When freely browsing through this forum in office I never expected such a picture. People who walks around or a have glimpse of your screen give a damn about what that picture actually about but obviously it create a negative impression in their minds.

Please restrain posting such pictures in-line, and provide a link instead.

 

[doors666]

Picture posted above is of bad taste. When freely browsing through this forum in office I never expected such a picture. People who walks around or a have glimpse of your screen give a damn about what that picture actually about but obviously it create a negative impression in their minds.

Please restrain posting such pictures in-line, and provide a link instead.

Now I need to watch out for my kids while browsing hifivision also:sad:

 

[neutral]

Well, I love the answers when posed with real questions. Its easy to tell of fancy magic land, but alas, it may not exist. It does exist in the heart and mind though.


I think this is the ultimate truth. People are getting results based on their calling. IMO, anything based on calling may not be real. If there are REAL test and results, everyone WILL see it, irrespective of the calling.


Btw, Just to be on topic - Love the way the OP made a statement, lighted a fire and stepped back. I am sure he is enjoying all the arguments and having a big laugh. Didn't see any post from him afterwards.

After a point in time, one starts to believe in ones experiences and realities and not in what others want you to believe in. There is foo foo dust everywhere ! In spec - land as well as in audio porn - land

When I said, different paths I mean the path will find you if need it. For example, if you listen to a purist two channel setup, if your calling is different, you will know that you need to change course. There is no fairy land or mystery there. For many of us, the numbers is the fairyland. How our brain / reacts to a music system is the reality .

I agree the OP is nowhere to be found. It is fun to discuss though

 

[thatguy]

Well, I would really love to do this silly game. I would like to get Reference grade speakers in a room. Will try to do a good job of set up up the listening room. Now, how will I know the speakers are reference grade? By going with the brand name? Now, granted if I go by the brand name, How will I know that after I set it up in my room, it's really reference grade setup? By knowing that I bought good components? Or really doing some measurements? Cause if I know correctly, reference means a standard and you can only compare by benchmarking against it. But then, later you say to forget the measurements as that's not the important factor.

I am surprised you (and others) decided to dignify a post which was a statement of pure irresponsibility. The gentleman wants to make claims but is unwilling to back it up.

Hard to argue with the palm reader types. They seem to have all the answers, yet are unwilling to stand behind what they say.

 

[kaushik]

Audio debates are like "do tigers eat grass?" ..

There are 1000 opinions who is correct is not the question . question is what we want out of this discussion.

We want to have answers to questions like

1.will AVR be good for movie + music ? if yes which models and what price?
2.How can you say that ?
3. Should i invest in a stereo amp ? will it give better SQ?

As being a believer of test and suggest way i can give concrete answers to some of these .

I have tested with YAM avr, Onkyo etc , the tripath amps perform very well.
Tripath I will rate as 8/10
AVR I will rate as 5/10 interms of overall experience . Include better resolution,sound stage and transients handled

source: DIY dac
cables : very basic panasonic OFC
speakers :MS carnival

As i have tested with KEF Q100/300 the tripath 'is' a VFM amplifier .
in < 40K . This is on combo that one can start with .


For higher budgets the game changes and i cant comment on the mix and match.
Note : Newcomers will not be able to distinguish much when we do Stereo amp vs AVR as ears has to become mature .People with entry avrs will sure see the difference.


I believe discussion on pure audio, reference setup, perfect setup is lengthy affair , creates imagination and confusion.

Dsp (digital processing included) based basic AVRs have been found to degrade sound , this is a fact .

Well reviewed 2 channel stereo amp we can assume as "pure" output is some how follow the input in a better way[there are distortion,lag etc etc not really ideal amplification,cant be].

Conclusion :
Go for a good stereo amp (avoid integrated amps),Topping etc are good
start .

for Music setup :sure it is a must
for Movies : yes many people use stereo as start, 5.1 packs for low cost
are pretty bad ,trust me on that

 

[rishiguru]

kaushik how many AVRs have you auditioned before you came to this conclusion and created this thread "Why Avr so bad for music?"

Did you reach to this conclusion after auditioned sub 30K AVRs? Have you ever heard a good AVR that comes in the region of 1 lakh plus with proper speakers setup?

I am not talking about high end AVRs now.

 

[Audiodoc]

@rishi. 1 lac is a lot of money and I regard it a high end price. I may be envious that you got a Yamaha z9 for around 50k but will you sell your car to buy it. NO!

Yes, most if not all sub 30k AVRs don't sound as good as similar prices stereo setups.

I can jot down so many stereo setups which will beat the z9 too but that would be a money no bar game.

Most of us cannot or will not buy them because of affordability.

 

[rishiguru]

@rishi. 1 lac is a lot of money and I regard it a high end price.

I thought that too in the beginning of this thread. But people are talking about US $10000 plus dartZeels here, so i thought 1 lakh for an AVR is nothing in comparison to these ultra high end stereos.

Yes, most if not all sub 30k AVRs don't sound as good as similar prices stereo setups.

Audiodoc do you believe this as a fair comparison? Just to compare two front channels of an AVR with a similarly priced stereo amp and come up to this conclusion of better SQ without even taking into notice of how many more things an AVR has to perform at the same price.

Personally I believe one should compare an AVR which costs a minimum of three times of a stereo amp in terms of stereo music comparison. Else its simply injustice. One wants stereo go for stereo amps. Nobody is complaining here. But that does not mean all the AVRs are not musical.

I love multi-channel music. Does that mean I am not a music lover? It seems stereo means music or else its nothing. Tell me how can a stereo amp satisfy my needs?

 

[corElement]

I thought that too in the beginning of this thread. But people are talking about US $10000 plus dartZeels here, so i thought 1 lakh for an AVR is nothing in comparison to these ultra high end stereos.

Audiodoc do you believe this as a fair comparison? Just to compare two front channels of an AVR with a similarly priced stereo amp and come up to this conclusion of better SQ without even taking into notice of how many more things an AVR has to perform at the same price.

Personally I believe one should compare an AVR which costs a minimum of three times of a stereo amp in terms of stereo music comparison. Else its simply injustice. One wants stereo go for stereo amps. Nobody is complaining here. But that does not mean all the AVRs are not musical.

I love multi-channel music. Does that mean I am not a music lover? It seems stereo means music or else its nothing. Tell me how can a stereo amp satisfy my needs?

Rishi I feel you have lost sight of the topic of this thread and turned it into your personal crusade to validate high end AVR's as a viable option for music.

I've been watching this thread for several days now as the integrity of it descended into the pits of chaos and I think the mods need to lock it before it gets further out of hand.

 

[jaudere]

Personally I believe one should compare an AVR which costs a minimum of three times of a stereo amp in terms of stereo music comparison. Else its simply injustice..

Rishiguru,
I am not against AVRs in general but if you see,, the OP has compared a Rs. 4000 amp (TP2020) iwith Rs 15000 AVR (yamaha RXV361), so the comparison does fulfill your requairement of fair comparison.

 

[tirthankar]

This is a stalemate situation.

There are people who will prefer multi-channel music, like Rishi. They will want to get the most powerful AVR/multi channel amplifier they can afford. Similarly for people whose first preference is Movies, but will also listen to music from time to time, they will move towards AVRs.

On the other hand, there are people who dont dig surround music. As two channels are enough to produce a stereographic image of the music in front of the listener, they are happy with two channels only and instead prefer to make those two channels as high quality as they can afford. They will always go for stereo amps.

Two different groups, two different perceptions. These two will never agree. For me music is always two channel, music coming from all around me sounds unnatural.

But there is a third group, ones who are not yet sure of what they want. It will be improper to mislead them that music is as good from multichannels, if not better, than stereo. If all they want is music, they should first listen a high quality stereo setup, and an AVR of the same price.. and compare.

Why am I stressing same price? Because, as I mentioned earlier, everyone has a fixed budget.
If I have 30000 Rs, and prefer two channel to multi channel for audio, I wont go spend 90000 on an AVR to get comparable sound quality to a 30000 stereo amp.

Hope I could make my point.