Why Avr so bad for music?

[Audiodoc]

But rishi if I have 4.75 lacks to spend. I can procure a great setup of separates like the Cyrus DAC, pre & power which will be better for 2 channel music.

Do you have a library of recorded multichannel music. During my entire life all I could get was a DVD of 7.1 channel music that came with my Audigy 2 ZS sound card and some downloaded stuff.

 

[rishiguru]

But rishi if I have 4.75 lacks to spend. I can procure a great setup of separates like the Cyrus DAC, pre & power which will be better for 2 channel music.

Sure you can. If you want two channels and two channels only it will wise to stick with stereo components. With this budget any stereo setup will produce excellent SQ. But your journey ends there.

Suddenly you get a high quality 5.1 channel DVD disc of say a live orchestral performance with some fifty audio instruments played together in a wide space and you start playing it through a substandard AVR with crappy speakers since your Uber stereo setup doesnt support it. Then you go on to buy a Bluray disc of a recent hindi movie say 3 Idiots with an excellent high quality 7.1 channels audio format with all those beautiful songs encoded in it and you again start playing this through your substandard AVR setup since your Uber stereo setup doesnt support it.

Here you are simply missing the music in the movies as well as the all engulfing live performance of the orchestra which is already there in the DVD/ BD discs ready to be delivered to you but your moderate quality AVR setup is not being able to show their real potential while your Uber stereo setup simply rejects to handle more than two of its seven channels. For me not being one of those Uber riches and having the liberty to setup separate high quality stereo/ multi-channel and movie setups, an Uber AV amplifier seems to be the wisest solution.

Coz in the end I find these Uber A/V amps of DSP-Z9 caliber lends them with a unique ability i.e. to be a jack of all trades and then be master of all. During critical stereo listening it may not be a INR 4.75 lakhs stereo amp but comes with enough SQ to be on par with a INR 2.5 lakhs Musical Fidelity A5 which is quite a high standard and then comes with multi-channel inputs to provide a live concert environment with incredible power output with SAME IDENTICAL FIDELITY of MF A5, capable of powering any speaker on the market today in all of its nine channels with enough juice to spare making them a very versatile amplifier for a variety of system.

At the same time it provides REAL movie theater experience with MF A5 levels of SQ on all of its channels in my home with power and headroom to be able to drive even tough impedance-load speakers to beyond-cinema levels, even from the most demanding sources.

And for me this is enough. Do I want more in terms of performance and SQ? Yes. But I do not possess the money to buy US 10,000+ dartZeel stereo setups and spend an equal amount of money for multi-channel/ movie setups. So they always remain in my dreams.

I am a self proclaimed music lover and enjoy every kind of music and formats that it comes with, be it mono, stereo, or multi-channel. I believe in the philosophy that music can live without HiFi but HiFi can never ever live without music. And I have the liberty to enjoy all these types of high quality music/ movies in any format with my TOTL AV multi-channel amp in a high level while you are ALWAYS stuck with two channels.

But my moot point is not to discriminate stereo lovers. In the end everybody have different needs and preferences. For me though a TOTL AV amp seems to be the most practical solution since it is a one box solution that satisfies almost all my needs, buys me respectable SQ on all of its channels and maybe not ultra high quality stereo amp specific RM field free SQ on only two channels, and in achieving a music lovers goal of enjoying every format of audio from all type of audio sources within a limited budget.

 

[square_wave]

@Rishi,

From your writeup, it is very clear that you are a specialist. A surround sound specialist. So you have setup which provides special quality to your chosen hobby and acceptable quality for the other.

Folks on the other boat will do this the opposite way.

Here is a picture of a mono block amplifier. Only one channel. Just to give you an idea about what the other camp is drooling about

[/URL][/IMG]

 

[corElement]

Only one channel. Just to give you an idea about what the other camp is drooling about

So...beautiful :licklips: 1 channel of purity :licklips::licklips: now we're talking

 

[square_wave]

A good example of a good music system which can make the blood racing for a stereo music lover

[/URL][/IMG]

 

[cmsajith]

For 4.5L, I would have gone for a good AV processor with a good 5 channel amp for multi channel (C & surrounds) along with a very good 2 channel setup (L/R for multi channel). AVR will be nowhere near for both movies and music.

 

[cmsajith]

:licklips::licklips::licklips:

A good example of a good music system which can make the blood racing for a stereo music lover

[/URL][/IMG]

 

[rishiguru]

For 4.5L, I would have gone for a good AV processor with a 5 channel amp for multi channel (C & surrounds) along with a very good 2 channel setup (L/R for multi channel). AVR will be nowhere near for both movies and music.

Considering my Yamaha DSP-Z9 used to cost US $4500 back in 2004, I wonder how would have bought an AV processor, multi-channel power amp and also a stereo amp with the same budget back then.

I admit though $4500 can certainly buy you a lot power and flexibility via the alternate separates route. Assuming you split your $4500 budget 60% for processor and 40% for the seven channel power amplifier you would be hard pressed to find a $2700 dedicated processor with the refinement and configurability of DSP-Z9 back then. In addition, the internal amp section of the DSP-Z9 is good enough to stand toe to toe with many entry level dedicated multi-channel power amps the $2000 price range.

And what about your quality stereo amp which is going to cost another $2000 I guess.

 

[cmsajith]

Considering my Yamaha DSP-Z9 used to cost US $4500 back in 2004, I wonder how would have bought an AV processor, multi-channel power amp and also a stereo amp with the same budget back then.

I admit though $4500 can certainly buy you a lot power and flexibility via the alternate separates route. Assuming you split your $4500 budget 60% for processor and 40% for the seven channel power amplifier you would be hard pressed to find a $2700 dedicated processor with the refinement and configurability of DSP-Z9 back then. In addition, the internal amp section of the DSP-Z9 is good enough to stand toe to toe with many entry level dedicated multi-channel power amps the $2000 price range.

And what about your quality stereo amp which is going to cost another $2000 I guess.

I had read all your posts and it seems you were just telling stories based on assumptions, be specific. For a good processor like Marantz AV7005 and a decent powerful amp like Emotiva XMC series doesnt cost bomb and definitely better SQ than the so called TOTL AVR. Even Emotiva UMC1 has a comparable SQ. With this price tag I dont have any issue in getting a 2000$ stereo poweramp to complete the 7channels for movies also. Now dont comeback saying the so 7005 doesnt have the SQ/flexibility as your so called TOTL AVR.

 

[corElement]

A good example of a good music system which can make the blood racing for a stereo music lover

[/URL][/IMG]

too much for me lol :lol:

 

[SatSon]

I had read all your posts and it seems you were just telling stories based on assumptions, be specific. For a good processor like Marantz AV7005 and a decent powerful amp like Emotiva XMC series doesnt cost bomb and better definitely SQ than the so called TOTL AVR. Even Emotiva UMC1 has a comparable SQ. With this price tag I dont have any issue in getting a 2000$ stereo poweramp to complete the 7channels for movies also. Now dont comeback saying the so 7005 doesnt have the SQ/flexibility as your so called TOTL AVR.

I'm afraid, if you are also not going based on assumptions here

 

[reignofchaos]

Coz in the end I find these Uber A/V amps of DSP-Z9 caliber lends them with a unique ability i.e. to be a jack of all trades and then be master of all. During critical stereo listening it may not be a INR 4.75 lakhs stereo amp but comes with enough SQ to be on par with a INR 2.5 lakhs Musical Fidelity A5 which is quite a high standard and then comes with multi-channel inputs to provide a live concert environment with incredible power output with SAME IDENTICAL FIDELITY of MF A5, capable of powering any speaker on the market today in all of its nine channels with enough juice to spare making them a very versatile amplifier for a variety of system.

At the same time it provides REAL movie theater experience with MF A5 levels of SQ on all of its channels in my home with power and headroom to be able to drive even tough impedance-load speakers to beyond-cinema levels, even from the most demanding sources.

Sorry to burst your bubble. I'm yet to hear a decent musical fidelity amp. The A5 is a rubbish amp IMHO. Please compare it with a serious 4500$ amp such as a entry level symphonic line or naim or something else in that range from a serious manufacturer.

I can pretty much guarantee that this yamaha or whatever will be eaten alive if one were to listen to stereo music by the most basic symphonic line.

 

[cmsajith]

I'm afraid, if you are also not going based on assumptions here

Partially true, but I have heard onkyo's "TOTL AVR", Marantz AV7005, Emotiva UMC1 (I am using) and from the online reviews I can somewhat relate. Moreover people had compared it with several stereo amps and its no where near. (even in the range of 2000$, Yamaha's AS2000, but there are people considering even this as just HiFi sounding amp compared to other options)

 

[manoj.p]

We all have our preferences, likes, opinions, opinions mixed with facts etc. But making tall claims like this is really not helping.


I understand there will be differences in these equipments and people will choose based on which sound they prefer. But to make a generalized statement that a Stereo amp WILL ALWAYS beat an AVR/Processor/separates is far from truth. The only way to take the subjectivity out is the blind testing with A/B. But you guys again frown that. So what should we judge based on? Just the word from the guy who is making the tall claim? someone makes a claim that they can hear 1db difference. someone else can identify the amp vs avr from the next room. I guess we all have to simply bow down and take their word for it.

Because we are talking about amps here, I would like to point people to a blind tests of amps. Amplifier Sound Quality | Amplifiers | HomeTheaterFocus.com

The internet is full of blind tests and their results are out there. matrixhifi.com is one such a site. I am sorry but that's the only way to differentiate products, because the subjectivity plays a very important role into what we hear and how we perceive it. Ever wondered why all this voodo does not show up in video as much? How much people all of sudden do not see the details, contrast, punch, veils being lifted out of the picture but only use these superlatives with audio?

PS: I have listened to AV7005/amp combo. Its very good, no doubt. But I wouldn't just write off the Z9 without listening to it and doing A/B comparison. Same with I won't write off any stereo equipment of amp for that matter. BUT I would not go making the tall claims about it either.

No offense meant to references here, just wanted to highlight these.

 

[manoj.p]

Going by my past experience in participating in such threads, I desisted but Thirthankar's post about the third group stirred me up.

I'm not sure if you have come across a well calibrated set up of a SET amp + high efficiency speakers. I'm sure it will give you a different perspective of sound. My apologies if you already have, no offenses meant.

Well to answer your question, I have listened to some of the nicest stereo setups, including at Ascend Acoustics own studio. No doubt these were almost reference quality setup, especially the Ascend Acoustic setup. I have listened to some other AVR based setups, some were dedicated Pre-Pro/Amp setups and those were nice too. But I never got to do A/B comparison plus most of the comparison was based on memory. Which we all agree is not a valid way to do.

So my best comparison was at my home. My equipment is
AVR - Sherwood R-972
Amp - Adcom GFA 7500, 5 channel amp
Source - Marantz DV8400
Speakers - JBL 4410
Cables - Monoprice.

The JBL's are very high efficient speakers. My earlier receiver Onkyo 605 was able to drive the front 3 JBL 4410a and 4 JBL 8330 speakers without problem.

Now, Both sherwood and Marantz can turn off all the processing in Pure Audio. There is no display, no video processing, everything is shut off. I compared the listening following way.
1 - Marantz analog out to Adcom. No volume control in between. To get the level right, played a 60Hz sine tone, measure the db level using spl meter (It was quite loud)
2 - Marantz Analog output to sherwood. Its on Pure direct. Sherwood driving the speakers. To level match with 1 - played the same 60Hz tone, adjusted volume till got the same spl rating as 1.
3 - Marantz Analog out to sherwood. Pure direct. Adcom used as amp driving the speakers.
4 - Marantz digital out to sherwood. adcom used for driving speakers.
Now during these listening tests, there was some delay as well, in switching the cables etc. so its not lab grade A/B.

All these listening, I could not hear a huge difference. There were very subtle differences. Not a whole to jump at you or make you want to have it differently. But when I changed to test 4 and refined it bit more with Room Correction and different modes, I could hear lot of differences. Mainly could be because I was able to change it on the fly with a remote button press.

I called my few friends to test it out and not a whole difference to point out. On the other hand when we did A/B comparison between my earlier speakers and JBL's, same friends could point out the differences without problem. That told me there was not a whole difference as made out between the AVR and a dedicated amp. vs directly from the cd player.

I still have the adcom in the chain. Main reason for that is because the sherwood AVR has a current limiting switch in it, making it clip when all 7 speakers are driving. I haven't heard the clipping so much, but want to protect my speakers. That's why left the Adcom in the chain to drive the front 3 speakers. 4 surround speakers are still driven by Sherwood.

I know its my own test, but it did the work for me. Everyone has their own tests. But our experience need not have to be projected as reference to others.

 

[cmsajith]

We all have our preferences, likes, opinions, opinions mixed with facts etc. But making tall claims like this is really not helping.


But to make a generalized statement that a Stereo amp WILL ALWAYS beat an AVR/Processor/separates is far from truth.

Are we comparing the stereo amp with a processor \ processing part? I tried to check the preamp section to highlight the importance of preamp section b/n a stereo preamp and Emotiva UMC1 by using the same amp, here the variables are only preamps as the DAC used was same, there was a big difference.

PS: I have listened to AV7005/amp combo. Its very good, no doubt. But I wouldn't just write off the Z9 without listening to it and doing A/B comparison. Same with I won't write off any stereo equipment of amp for that matter. BUT I would not go making the tall claims about it either.

I havent written off Z9, but the tall claims. The same way which me and you heard 7005, there are people who had used Z9 and compared their own AS2000, a 2000$ stereo amp and says Z9 is no where near. Also I have seen people who had heard AS2000 says its nothing more of a HiFi sound than a high end. Corelating those observations we can relate the performance of the TOTL AVR, I agree that a back to back test will make it clear.

 

[cmsajith]

Well to answer your question, I have listened to some of the nicest stereo setups, including at Ascend Acoustics own studio. No doubt these were almost reference quality setup, especially the Ascend Acoustic setup. I have listened to some other AVR based setups, some were dedicated Pre-Pro/Amp setups and those were nice too. But I never got to do A/B comparison plus most of the comparison was based on memory. Which we all agree is not a valid way to do.

So my best comparison was at my home. My equipment is
AVR - Sherwood R-972
Amp - Adcom GFA 7500, 5 channel amp
Source - Marantz DV8400
Speakers - JBL 4410
Cables - Monoprice.

The JBL's are very high efficient speakers. My earlier receiver Onkyo 605 was able to drive the front 3 JBL 4410a and 4 JBL 8330 speakers without problem.

Now, Both sherwood and Marantz can turn off all the processing in Pure Audio. There is no display, no video processing, everything is shut off. I compared the listening following way.
1 - Marantz analog out to Adcom. No volume control in between. To get the level right, played a 60Hz sine tone, measure the db level using spl meter (It was quite loud)
2 - Marantz Analog output to sherwood. Its on Pure direct. Sherwood driving the speakers. To level match with 1 - played the same 60Hz tone, adjusted volume till got the same spl rating as 1.
3 - Marantz Analog out to sherwood. Pure direct. Adcom used as amp driving the speakers.
4 - Marantz digital out to sherwood. adcom used for driving speakers.
Now during these listening tests, there was some delay as well, in switching the cables etc. so its not lab grade A/B.

All these listening, I could not hear a huge difference. There were very subtle differences. Not a whole to jump at you or make you want to have it differently. But when I changed to test 4 and refined it bit more with Room Correction and different modes, I could hear lot of differences. Mainly could be because I was able to change it on the fly with a remote button press.

I called my few friends to test it out and not a whole difference to point out. On the other hand when we did A/B comparison between my earlier speakers and JBL's, same friends could point out the differences without problem. That told me there was not a whole difference as made out between the AVR and a dedicated amp. vs directly from the cd player.

I still have the adcom in the chain. Main reason for that is because the sherwood AVR has a current limiting switch in it, making it clip when all 7 speakers are driving. I haven't heard the clipping so much, but want to protect my speakers. That's why left the Adcom in the chain to drive the front 3 speakers. 4 surround speakers are still driven by Sherwood.

I know its my own test, but it did the work for me. Everyone has their own tests. But our experience need not have to be projected as reference to others.

Test 1,2,3 were supposed to sound same as the chain is same except 1,2 (variable:amp). I had tested with Emotiva XPA 5 channel power amp with 2 channels for music, heard a big difference to Quad 909. Today also I heard it as I had set it up for one of my friend's HT along with UMC1 paired w/ B&W speakers, even without a A/B test I can clearly feel the difference. Test 4 difference is due to the change in DAC b/n a DVD player to AVR and processing.

 

[captrajesh]

Everyone has their own tests. But our experience need not have to be projected as reference to others.

Fully agree. Ascend speakers are quite expensive and sure must be sounding great.

I fully respect your judgement in selecting what appealed to you and wish you years of musical bliss.

I was just trying to present a different perspective about stereo sound which comes out not from any super expensive equipment but from simple vintage equipment and technology which is so magical that one has to hear to believe what it is.

It is purely a matter of one's own choice whether to be open to new ideas or stick to one's own.

 

[captrajesh]

The only way to take the subjectivity out is the blind testing with A/B. But you guys again frown that. So what should we judge based on? Just the word from the guy who is making the tall claim? someone makes a claim that they can hear 1db difference. someone else can identify the amp vs avr from the next room. I guess we all have to simply bow down and take their word for it.

I don't think anyone here would object to a blind test. There have been a lot of arguments over this on this very forum. I'm a game for it. Any more volunteers from either of the camps?

Because we are talking about amps here, I would like to point people to a blind tests of amps. Amplifier Sound Quality | Amplifiers | HomeTheaterFocus.com

The internet is full of blind tests and their results are out there. matrixhifi.com is one such a site.

I can't say for sure about the one that is linked here but I've learned from experience and specifically from a guy who is younger than me but much more knowledgeable about the subject on the motives of surveys which would by and large be ulterior and need not be relied upon blindly. There would be a logical chain of links with each having one's own motive; the article would be trip wire.

That's why I say, trust your ears only.

 

[manoj.p]

Are we comparing the stereo amp with a processor \ processing part? I tried to check the preamp section to highlight the importance of preamp section b/n a stereo preamp and Emotiva UMC1 by using the same amp, here the variables are only preamps as the DAC used was same, there was a big difference.

The AV Processors are same as AVR minus the amp. Mainly that's the difference between AV7005 vs SR7005 (and the balanced outputs).

I havent written off Z9, but the tall claims.

My comment was mostly to the below quote. Again, just highlighting, no offense meant.

I had read all your posts and it seems you were just telling stories based on assumptions, be specific. For a good processor like Marantz AV7005 and a decent powerful amp like Emotiva XMC series doesnt cost bomb and definitely better SQ than the so called TOTL AVR. Even Emotiva UMC1 has a comparable SQ. With this price tag I dont have any issue in getting a 2000$ stereo poweramp to complete the 7channels for movies also. Now dont comeback saying the so 7005 doesnt have the SQ/flexibility as your so called TOTL AVR.

I do understand we come from different experiences and we form the opinions. Many times though things don't seem right. At one home, there was a 5.1, quite mid to high end system. Same house had an even more expensive 2 channel stereo setup. But the 5.1 sounded very good when played through 2 channel only compared to the dedicated stereo. It could be the case of improper setup. I have seen another setups which are expensive but not set properly or optimized. Some people seemed more knowledgeable and preachy on forums, but their own setup was nothing to write about. People when they buy a new component, get the huge difference, but realize over time that it wasn't so much. That taught me how much to pay attention to when someone claims something on the net. I am sure you have noticed that as well. Captain said rightly, "trust your own ears".