Why tube amps?

[malvai]

Hello !
I do not have much exposure to this genre of music, however, my limited exposure to audio suggests that the musical preferences that you have may be best addressed through SS Amplifiers.
Else 'big' & 'powerful' tube amplifiers.
I am assuming this cause spl levels may need to be between 95dB & 110 dB more often than not & unless you have horn loaded loudspeakers [like Avant Garde or the kind] set amplifiers may not work and sheer 'head room' may not exist.

Shanti, despite not being familiar with the genre, I'd say that your observation is spot on!
Metal/ Hard rock needs a lot of head room to sound satisfying. In fact most of the time it is 'cranked up' to really be 'felt' for its raw aggression. For this one needs powerful amplification.
I have heard metal and rock on mass market amplifiers and now listen to it on my more 'serious' rig. And it sounds amazing!
Though, in all fairness, the last 10 years I have been listening to more and more blues and jazz, and hence have been building a set up that helps me get more of the 'feel' rather than raw aggression!
I find that most 'cohesive' set ups will play any genre of music faithfully. If i find a pairing that falters on any genre - i avoid it. Because, quite obviously it is not matched to perfection - whether it be toob or SS!

 

[bhagwan]

last 10 years I have been listening to more and more blues and jazz, and hence have been building a set up that helps me get more of the 'feel' rather than raw aggression!

I was a 'hard core' SS guy for many many years....
Used to play the 'audiophile' game.
Accurate / Transparent etc. etc.

Over the past 2 years have moved into Tubes.
My parameters [what I look for] have changed.
It is no longer about 'accuracy'
I am only subscribing to a 'colour'
I love 'COLOURED' sound.
I just want components to 'sing' together.
That is all.
It has to be 'relaxed' & supremely musical.

 

[ajay124]

I was a 'hard core' SS guy for many many years....
Used to play the 'audiophile' game.
Accurate / Transparent etc. etc.

Over the past 2 years have moved into Tubes.
My parameters [what I look for] have changed.
It is no longer about 'accuracy'
I am only subscribing to a 'colour'
I love 'COLOURED' sound.
I just want components to 'sing' together.
That is all.
It has to be 'relaxed' & supremely musical.

Bravo!I like your simple synthesis of the neverending ss/tube debate.At the moment I am in the SS camp as I am in love with my Bryston amp.I cannot imagine better sound than this!The cd's keep spinning and the magic gets better and better.For instance the amp went on at 6 in the morning today...still going strong...today has been an all rock session...Neil Young/Harvest/Harvest Moon,Bread/Anthology,Dire Straits/Dire Straits/Communique,Phil Ochs/Farewell and Fantasies/Pink Floyd/Wish You Were Here,Traffic/Low Sparks,Doors/American Prayer,Bob Marley at the moment....
Hey,Mister Music,sure sounds good to me!
I can't refuse it,what is to be,got to be.
Feel like dancing,dance 'coz we are free;
Feel like dancing,come dance with me!
Roots, rock, reggae,dis the reggae music!
But I like to keep moving.And one day I have promised myself I will have a great tube set up!

 

[malvai]

It is no longer about 'accuracy'
I am only subscribing to a 'colour'
I love 'COLOURED' sound.
I just want components to 'sing' together.
That is all.
It has to be 'relaxed' & supremely musical.

I on the other hand look for accuracy... i dislike my gear to impart their own colour to the music, because i like toi listent to the singer / composition not the gear's version of the same!

but to each his own so please please please do not take offense to my point of view!

 

[bhagwan]

And one day I have promised myself I will have a great tube set up

Sir,
This is a strange world;
Many many moons back, I used to use a Bryston 7B ST [There was no 14 / 28 & Stuart Taylor used to make the amps] without the SST's i.e.
The Pre was the BP26. I missed 'something' so I changed to a Pass Labs X-1 pre - got better, but yet was not satisfied...
The point I am trying to make, I ment through several SS Amps - [pre's too] & now I use a Tube Power amp with no pre. Direct DAC drive.
I have seen hard core tube lovers - Jadis / AudioAero - change to Solid State [most strange] & hard core SS guys [GamuT] change to tube pres...
To try and stitch what I am saying, there is no 1 place that audio nirvana can be found. We all have to 'strive' to improve....
Some change here & some change there - if it sounds better - we should be ready to 'accept' that it is 'better' even if it is from a camp that we may not belong too...
That I find to be the biggest hurdle that most audiophile cannot cross... All have such pre fixed ideas of what is 'good' & what will 'work' for them - so on and so forth....

 

[bhagwan]

I on the other hand look for accuracy... i dislike my gear to impart their own colour to the music, because i like toi listent to the singer / composition not the gear's version of the same!

but to each his own so please please please do not take offense to my point of view!

none taken - rest assured...

p.s.

If I may make a small note here - how do we know what is accurate ?
Except if you listen to western classical music ? Do not bomb me - I will explain...

Western Classical is the only genre of music I listen to that is un amplified in its production.. I go to NCPA & the Piano / Violin etc. etc. are in front of me, being played without a Shure SM58 mic & no cables & never played back through and speaker.....

On the other hand, Dire Straits [Mark Knofler] we all love it, however, we never heard it when it was recorded & what we hear in a live concert is never what we listen to at home - so what is the point of reference we have ?
Same goes with Norah Jones / Diana Krall / Rebecca Pidgeon / Kari Bremnes / Mary Black etc. etc.
All we listen to @ home on so called audiophile pressings etc. but we do not have a mean with which we can associate it....
Just my 2 cents worth

 

[malvai]

i agree! which is why it is very important to listen to a lot of live music and then base one's judgement!

 

[bhagwan]

i agree! which is why it is very important to listen to a lot of live music and then base one's judgement!

Sir,
With due respect, all live music in India & Globally is always amplified;;
There is a Mic & the whole chain there after.
So you are never listening to the 'actual' sound of the performers voice or the sound of the instrument he / she is playing.
Go to a Jazz Club or to a festival - say Buddy Guy in India or any other - it is always through a PA set up. Your impression is based on the sonics of the mic / pre / cable / amplifier / speakers etc. etc.
So, how do I base my judgement of what the tone of the performance etc. is ?
Please do shed some light...
Shall be appreciated..

 

[stevieboy]

Absolutely. Even if one takes instruments, there are so many brands, so many strings, so many pickups. How does one know what exactly is the accurate version to benchmark against. Most people I think benchmark against a 'general' violin/guitar/instrument sound which is logically wrong since no two sound the same. How does one know what processing has been done in the studio? It's a well known fact that most rock artists at least depend so much on processing in the studio and are unable to recreate the same sound in live shows.

Neutral if describing frequency response that is measured scientifically through instruments I can understand when one says a component is neutral, it does not boost any particular frequency but accuracy...

 

[bhagwan]

There can be 2 set ups;
In identical rooms.
Same electronics / cables etc.
Just the speakers changed.
Both [speakers] have 30 Hzs to 20 KHzs freq response - +/- 1.5dB
However both do not have the same impulse response & their water fall graphs are very different & they will sound very very different...
So 'technical' evaluation by the 'book' is not always the 'final frontier'
In my books, what works is the final 'human voicing'
How the designer decides to 'voice' his speakers.
You see all studio speakers are very flat & 'dry' [Genelec / Adam etc.]
Can I listen to them for 30 ++ mins ? I am not sure.

 

[denom]

Shanti,

Thank you for your gyaan, much appreciated.
In the end, the decision for what works best for your taste should be arrived at by the individual. All the pros & cons of SS or tube amps can be discussed at length infinitely & lead one no where till he/she listens & decides.
I think both SS & Tube fans have derived more than enough gyaan on the 2 sides of the same story.

Thanks to all for sharing their experiences

 

[Asit]

There are 2 distinct entities: live concert and live performance.

Live concerts in India are almost always amplified music and are generally a mess (audiowise). For western classical live concerts in Europe (for example) I have attended abroad, there is generally no or very little amplification, although there is some amplification (they call it audio enhancement rather than amplification) in some or most places (in Vienna for example, if my memory serves me right) for the solo artiste.

Live performances strictly though should mean unamplified music. Very few in India are privileged to experience that. I am very fortunate to have heard many great classical North Indian performers live without any amplification. Ravishankar, Nikhil Banerjee and Vilayat Khan all play (or used to play) Sitar, but those Sitars look and sound very different. The same goes for any Sarodists (for example Ali Akbar Khan and Amjad Ali Khan). Even a moderately experienced listener should be able tell the differences of the same instrument from these people and should be able to decipher the artiste just from the tonal quality of the instrument.

But I agree very few people have had the privilege of listening to the artistes without any amplification. One of my dreams is to be able to listen to Lata Mangeshkar (when she was in her teens) without any amplifications. Unfortunately that is no longer possible, and the recordings available now are so so so poor. I am dying to find a good recording of Lata in her prime so that I can make my son listen to her at her best, but this will also probably remain a dream.

There WILL always be a difference between amplified music and live unamplified music regardless of the costs of the electronics and speakers. Level of musical appreciation also becomes an important point here, and I have noticed this is also something that changes with time for everybody and improves as one becomes more experienced. Ultimately the preference boils down to one's own tatse and what is not only acceptable but enjoyable at a given point of time.

Regards

 

[captrajesh]

how do we know what is accurate ?

Very valid point. :thumbsup:

 

[bhagwan]

Shanti,

Thank you for your gyaan, much appreciated.
In the end, the decision for what works best for your taste should be arrived at by the individual. All the pros & cons of SS or tube amps can be discussed at length infinitely & lead one no where till he/she listens & decides.
I think both SS & Tube fans have derived more than enough gyaan on the 2 sides of the same story.

Thanks to all for sharing their experiences

Dear denom,
That seems to be the problem :-

All the pros & cons of SS or tube amps can be discussed at length infinitely & lead one no where till he/she listens & decides.

How many people 'listen'

a] to their set ups
b] to other set ups
c] listen 'constructively' without 'pre - conceived' notions [set amps - horn speakers - 3 way design - 4th order x-over slopes - defraction loss etc. etc.]

Lots of people I have encountered, enter an audio rrom with their mind made up - their brain is already ready with a response to what they are about to hear...
I may be ill imformed, but that been my humble experience over the past decade in India & in other countries...

 

[stevieboy]

Hi Shanti,

I never thought I'd see you with a tube amp but then there are surprises around every corner. If you don't mind, do post what amp/preamp tube gear you've gone in for and speakers too. Am sure it'll be something quite high end knowing your tastes and ability to procure from any corner of the globe.

Thanks
regards
steve

 

[bhagwan]

Hi Shanti,

I never thought I'd see you with a tube amp but then there are surprises around every corner. If you don't mind, do post what amp/preamp tube gear you've gone in for and speakers too. Am sure it'll be something quite high end knowing your tastes and ability to procure from any corner of the globe.

Thanks
regards
steve

Hello Steve !

My Amplifier is Indian.
I use a Cadence Canasya - 845 [tube] based set amp.

I do not use a Pre Amplifier;
My DAC drives the Cadence direct.

 

[malvai]

Dear denom,
That seems to be the problem :-



How many people 'listen'

a] to their set ups
b] to other set ups
c] listen 'constructively' without 'pre - conceived' notions [set amps - horn speakers - 3 way design - 4th order x-over slopes - defraction loss etc. etc.]

Lots of people I have encountered, enter an audio rrom with their mind made up - their brain is already ready with a response to what they are about to hear...
I may be ill imformed, but that been my humble experience over the past decade in India & in other countries...

That is a very interesting observation. It is also very true....
I guess we all go in with various preconceptions and then become prejudiced with our own choices. . .

In the end I guess (and after reading all your observations about recorded and live music) we end up judging a particular designer's 'voicing' of the product.

if that be the case, would it be fair to say that THERE IS NO PERFECT GEAR? Wouldn't it be fair to also assume that we are all smapling 'differing flavours' with every set up? and then eventually buying what our (preconceived) opinion leads us to?

 

[ajay124]

Sir,
This is a strange world;
Many many moons back, I used to use a Bryston 7B ST [There was no 14 / 28 & Stuart Taylor used to make the amps] without the SST's i.e.
The Pre was the BP26. I missed 'something' so I changed to a Pass Labs X-1 pre - got better, but yet was not satisfied...
The point I am trying to make, I ment through several SS Amps - [pre's too] & now I use a Tube Power amp with no pre. Direct DAC drive.
I have seen hard core tube lovers - Jadis / AudioAero - change to Solid State [most strange] & hard core SS guys [GamuT] change to tube pres...
To try and stitch what I am saying, there is no 1 place that audio nirvana can be found. We all have to 'strive' to improve....
Some change here & some change there - if it sounds better - we should be ready to 'accept' that it is 'better' even if it is from a camp that we may not belong too...
That I find to be the biggest hurdle that most audiophile cannot cross... All have such pre fixed ideas of what is 'good' & what will 'work' for them - so on and so forth....

I intend to keep my solid state set up untouched.Simply add a Tube amp,integrated or power.
I agree you with you that the only 'unamplified' music is western classical chamber music.I have this Beethoven box set of piano trios/violin & cello sonatas,featuring Daniel Barenboim,Pinchas Zukerman and Jacquelin (!!!)Du Pre.Sounds sensational with the Bryston Pre/Power and Vienna Acoustic Beethoven Baby Grand.Would love to here it with a reasonably powerful Jadis/Unison Research/Ayon etc.I expect these amps would sound great.They would probably also score with Jazz from my favorite period '35-'65.
On the other hand I am much less confident about one of these amps being able to handle a Mahler symphony or Cream Live '68.
*And p-l-e-a-s-e my name is Ajay.It's embarrasing to be called 'Sir' by someone as knowledgable as you.

 

[Rajiv]

I intend to keep my solid state set up untouched.Simply add a Tube amp,integrated or power.

@Ajay, once you add a tube amp.your SS set up will remain untouched.

Regards
Rajiv

 

[bhagwan]

THERE IS NO PERFECT GEAR? Wouldn't it be fair to also assume that we are all smapling 'differing flavours' with every set up? and then eventually buying what our (preconceived) opinion leads us to?

Malvai, that is so true;

Spot on.

Basically, there are many things in Audio I have learnt & am still learning;
The biggest of which is my ability to listen [to music] & also my ability to understand audio.
To give you an example; Way back in 2003 I was in Singapore & had gone there specially to purchase a pre for my Bryston 7B ST. I listened to a lot, made notes etc. etc.
On one of my audition days, I went to a room that had a Gryphon Pre / Power set that was driving a Rockport Technologies Merak & Sheraton II.
That was the 1st day in my life I realised that the sound was beyond my comprehention. I had not reached a level to understand and accept and interpret waht I was listening to. Luckily my ego allowed me accept that I could not understand....That was my 1st big step in Audio. [Difficult for me to pen it here - will explain it to you guys - if we ever meet in person]
Audio to me is about out of body experiances - they are rare, but they do happen & I have had the great fortune to experience them a few times - thank the all mighty !

I just have 1 big big thing to say & request.
Try to listen as much as possible to as many different audio set ups as possible. The simplest to the most elaborate will have so much to teach you....
An audio set up in 1 room, no gear change, just the way it is 're-routed' [positioned hard ware] cables & speaker placement will change the way an audio set up represents itself.....
Keep trying & experimenting - think out of the box & answers will appear by themselves & you will be amazed with what you come across....