You Favorite Stereo Amplifier

[jls001]

The Lars amp can only output 10W in to 8 ohms. wouldn't it clip or negligible distortion increased at high volume level ?

The solution for flea-watt amps is to drive efficient speakers. e.g. Lyrita's 2 Watt 2A3 integrated amp happily driving an efficient speaker like a Rethm Sadhana. In my experience, it produced enough SPL (and music) to fill up a room that must be around 12 foot wide and at least 20 foot in length. I couldn't believe so little watt produced so much sound.

This reminds me of audio designer Nelson Pass' thought that the first watt is the most important watt (hence the name FirstWatt for his DIY designs which he open sources). If the first watt is no good, subsequent watts can't improve the sound, is his thought.

 

[bhagwan]

Parden me as I have little first hand audition experience of high end equipments. But If one spends Rs, 1 crore on a system it should play all genre of music at all volume levels without affecting linearity* and clarity*. The Lars amp can only output 10W in to 8 ohms. wouldn't it clip or negligible distortion increased at high volume level ?
* I may be wrong but what ever I have read on the net and without taking any names of audio engineers and designers who have decades of experience, that they design their amps to be as linear as possible, would be stable at any load (2ohms to 16 ohms), would have enough headroom to not to clip and will have least distortion at high volume.
-x-x-x-
Strange this hobby is. I promised myself to cut my net surfing activity and not to be bothered about subjective reviews or measurements. But here I am..... :sad:
Regards

Sir,
You are 100 % spot on;

The Lars is rated as under :-
Power output at 1% THD, 1 kHz: 36W

Yes, it will not plays all loads & yes it will not play loud.
Yet it costs 55K + 20 % VAT [not for export] - Why ?

What is so 'special' about it ?

Well, I do not have the answers to those questions - however, I do know - from my limited exposure in audio that there are not too many amplifiers in the world that I have heard that sound like 'The Lars' !!

Sir, in audio - it is all about personal preferences & tastes.....
Some like Digital Amps - Some like Class A Amps - Some like Class A/B Amps - Some like Tube Amps - Some like SET Tube Amps - Some like Push Pull Amps etc. etc. The list can go on and on.

If I could give an example to you - sorry for the drift - cars again - if I may be allowed.....
The Fasted Land Speed Record may belong to Tom Burkland broke the piston-engined, wheel-driven record for the flying mile, recording a speed of 415.896 mph (669.319 km/h). He drove the Burkland family streamliner powered by two 450+ cu. in. supercharged alcohol-fueled Donovan (aluminum Chrysler) engines (bought second-hand), with crankshafts bolted together nose-to-nose etc. etc. [I am sure it can be googled] - so I will spare the details.

However, is it the most comfortable car to drive ? fastest - yes - sure.

So to try and stick the 2 points together - the flatest measured amplifier is not always the most desired amplifier - like studio monitors - they are very very flat in their measurement - does that mean all audiophile buy studio speakers ?

I will let the jury decide !

 

[atozguy]

My favourite Stereo Amplifier is my six year old Son. He has a high pitch and when he screams (in normal course or in pleasure or in pain, mostly it is the first), his voice fills the house that no amp (tube or sheet metal) can match.

A small correction: My favourite Amplifier-cum-Speaker :lol:

 

[Hiten]

Joshua and Bhagwan I wholeheartedly agree with you about what a well designed even if few watts of an amp can do. I once visited a very old sindhi technician who deals in records and electronics. he played a modified garrard on valve radio (Thats why I have an urge to listen to valve amps) the sound was so sweet* and musical* no scratches or distortion I can perceive of. And I have no explanation why I liked the sound.

What i am trying to say is to acquire basic time and guru proven things right.

If you may allow an analogy. The cars you mentioned is not the right analogy I am talking about the road on which all (expensive or otherwise) cars would travel. One would not travel on pot ridden road would he?

*subjective terms

-x-x-x-
My sincere apologies to original poster and the subject of the thread. Guys lets move convesation to other thread.
Regards

 

[longshanks]

Sir, in audio - it is all about personal preferences & tastes.....

This statement answers all the questions.

Simply audition, buy and use components which will increase the pleasure of listening to your favorite music.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

The solution for flea-watt amps ...

What an interesting analogy. A flea may be small, but it can jump like no other creature!

 

[Hiten]

I know audition is the only way but dont know why it should not have only 'few' basic fundamentals required for a good sounding amp. If auditioning is only thing why look down upon people who like bose. I hope copy pasting from first watt website will not be a problem. Here is what sir nelson pass says.

First Watt is not for most people. If you have efficient loudspeakers, listen at reasonable levels and are obsessed about subjective performance, then you probably have come to the right place.

Why he has said that ? Let me guess. Because it is not 'the proper' way to listen to the music in normal circumstances. For that F5 is very good amplifier. Things that bother me is if one has 1 crore of a system atleast one or two basic techincal aspects of audio amplification should be satisfied. Am I wrong in saying that ?
Also please note I am not debating against anyone or their personal choices. I have lots of respect for them who have heard almost all high end equipments. Just curious why would one spend huge amount of money on an amp which will deliver only up to a certain point.

 

[bhagwan]

I know audition is the only way but dont know why it should not have only 'few' basic fundamentals required for a good sounding amp. If auditioning is only thing why look down upon people who like bose. I hope copy pasting from first watt website will not be a problem. Here is what sir nelson pass says.

Why he has said that ? Let me guess. Because it is not 'the proper' way to listen to the music in normal circumstances. For that F5 is very good amplifier. Things that bother me is if one has 1 crore of a system atleast one or two basic techincal aspects of audio amplification should be satisfied. Am I wrong in saying that ?
Also please note I am not debating against anyone or their personal choices. I have lots of respect for them who have heard almost all high end equipments. Just curious why would one spend huge amount of money on an amp which will deliver only up to a certain point.

Lovely post - I shall try and answer a few points you have raised;

a]
Bose.

I owned Bose too & was very proud of myself when I purchased it.
I do not look down on them.

All people are on a ladder & all must climb.

I-Pod
HTB
Bose
etc. etc.

It is only about awareness & exposure along with interest.

b]

The 'curve' for audio awareness & appreciation [as far as I am concerned] works like this;

1]
SPL
2]
SQ
3]
Sound Stage
4]
Separation
5]
Black Spaces [black]
6]
Tone
7]
Flavours

As time passes - the things we need & look for is audio change. Some use the term [loosely] 'maturity' I call it - priority.

Why do people spend money [lots of it] just to buy products that do not measure flat on the test bench ?

This is because we all do not listen in the same manner - our likes & dislikes are different. Like in Wines / Single Malts etc.
Ask any SM drinker - they are all Whiskey drinkers & all drank blends & then had JW's & later moved on. Does that make JW a bad whiskey ?

 

[avidyarthy]

Things that bother me is if one has 1 crore of a system atleast one or two basic techincal aspects of audio amplification should be satisfied. Am I wrong in saying that ?

Also please note I am not debating against anyone or their personal choices. I have lots of respect for them who have heard almost all high end equipments. Just curious why would one spend huge amount of money on an amp which will deliver only up to a certain point.

A BMW 735i does the SAME function (transports a person from one place to another ... obviously, more comfortably) as a dimunitive Maruti 800. Does it mean that the person is spending 50 times more for comfort .... don't think so ..... as a Honda Accord can provide virtually the same comfort levels. It is 'exclusivity' that is doing the sale here. Exclusivity COSTS money.

In the same breath here, some persons are willing to spend big bucks for 'that' incremental excess clarity, which most of us either do not make head or tail of or are willing to sacrifice it looking at the obnoxious costs involved.

AND definitely there is yet another factor .... the pleasure (shan't call it joy) of owning something not available to the masses ... it comes back to the old thing of 'exclusivity'.

 

[Hiten]

Dear Bhagwan and avid,
you are talking about evolving maturity about subjective listening and I am talking about basic foundation on which amplification is based. For example on car analogy I am not talking about which car you are travelling by only the 'road' you are on. So my questions still remain unanswered.

But anyway I respect you all. Please enjoy following wonderfull song
Ella F. and Louis Armstrong - Let's Call the Whole Thing Off - YouTube

 

[jls001]

Dear Bhagwan and avid,
you are talking about evolving maturity about subjective listening and I am talking about basic foundation on which amplification is based. For example on car analogy I am not talking about which car you are travelling by only the 'road' you are on. So my questions still remain unanswered.

@Hiten: Thanks for raising a very fundamental question. If I understand the conundrum right, what we are asking is, if after spending so much money, why do we get something that does only certain things right?

I think it boils down to The Lars (in our specific instance) being designed for a specific type of speakers - and by corollary - specific types of listeners (with well padded wallets, I must add). And yes, these are without argument lifestyle statements.

To take car analogy further, when one buys a BMW 5 series, it is for the handling and dynamics. A Merc E class will also have same badge value (at least in my poor eyes) and provide the same level of creature comforts but the Beemer will give that extra edge in handling and dynamics for the owner-driver compared to the three-pointed star. Both will comfortably take said fat-cat owner from point A to B which is the basic function of the automobiles in question. Now the question is whether one appreciates and needs handling and dynamics for the trade-off (however slight) in ride comfort. I have not listened to The Lars but I think there is no reason to not believe that it won't do the basics right, the scathing 6moons review notwithstanding.

 

[Hiten]

@Hiten: Thanks for raising a very fundamental question. If I understand the conundrum right, what we are asking is, if after spending so much money, why do we get something that does only certain things right?

Exactly after spending half a crore I would expect it to do everything right. BUT I am asking only for few.

To take car analogy further, when one buys a BMW 5 series, it is for the handling and dynamics. A Merc E class will also have same badge value (at least in my poor eyes) and provide the same level of creature comforts but the Beemer will give that extra edge in handling and dynamics for the owner-driver compared to the three-pointed star. Both will comfortably take said fat-cat owner from point A to B which is the basic function of the automobiles in question. Now the question is whether one appreciates and needs handling and dynamics for the trade-off (however slight) in ride comfort. I have not listened to The Lars but I think there is no reason to not believe that it won't do the basics right, the scathing 6moons review notwithstanding.

What about from point B to C. BMW can very well go from B to C but merc is saying big NO even if the buyer has paid good amount to take him anywhere he wants.

Avid is right it is Exclusivity what one is paying for.

My last post as I dont want to be more offtopic in this thread. I apologize again.

 

[srinisundar]

This is also offtopic;;; An expensive Merc / BMW or slight mid Civic cannot cross an our govt laid slightly high speed breaker with ease, but an indica or swift can jump in the breaker very easily without much efforts. BMW OR MERC is suitable for only highways and for people only worry about lows(pits):lol:

So high end speakers and high end amps are for flowing the music which were recorded/sang like butter, but they dont want to ride the heavy music with lot of high and lows and bass. Am I right to some extent

NOTE TO MODS :

Why not open an separate thread for these, it will be an records and good information OR mods can move the topic from Post No.10 to create new thread

 

[bhagwan]

NOTE TO MODS :
Why not open an separate thread for these, it will be an records and good information OR mods can move the topic from Post No.10 to create new thread

imho Post # 20 is fine for this thread;
Post # 21 onwards could be moved - if the mods so feel !

All said; The person that started this thread 'Jenson'
asked :-

Stereo Amplifier in use:
Speakers it's paired with:
Cables:
Musical Preferences:
Any other Gear that you use which contributes in a significant manner:
Best Amplifier you auditioned but couldn't go for it because of high rate:

So, if I posted about The Lars - it seemed to be in line with the last question that was asked

Best Amplifier you auditioned but couldn't go for it because of high rate

:sad:

 

[bhagwan]

Exactly after spending half a crore I would expect it to do everything right. BUT I am asking only for few.

What about from point B to C. BMW can very well go from B to C but merc is saying big NO even if the buyer has paid good amount to take him anywhere he wants.

Avid is right it is Exclusivity what one is paying for.

My last post as I dont want to be more offtopic in this thread. I apologize again.

Sir,
You may buy a Porsche 911 Turbo for 1.5 + Crore & it will not take you off the Mumbai Pune Expressway into your lavish Pawna Farm House. You will have to use a Range Rover / M Class / X Series etc. for that.
So the point being every product has its purpose.
Road & Car go hand in hand - Speaker & Amplifier go hand in hand.
Each has to be mated 'correctly'


The Lars is a 300B [Tube] based amplifier that gives to you 32 watts - show me any other amp in the world that can do that ? Please....All will give to you 8 or 16 watts @ max - so that is why the product costs the amount that it does - at the top - for a small increase you pay 'dearly' !!
Everyone [most professional athletes] can run 100 M in 11 seconds. 20 people in the world can run it in 10 seconds & only 3 can run it under 10 seconds....So my point is - high end is about that last 1 second - rather last 1/10th of a second !!

 

[Spinekar]

Not taking anything away from what the masters are trying to explain here, but the song says it all hiten :clapping::clapping::clapping:

Dear Bhagwan and avid,
you are talking about evolving maturity about subjective listening and I am talking about basic foundation on which amplification is based. For example on car analogy I am not talking about which car you are travelling by only the 'road' you are on. So my questions still remain unanswered.

But anyway I respect you all. Please enjoy following wonderfull song
Ella F. and Louis Armstrong - Let's Call the Whole Thing Off - YouTube

 

[jls001]

for a small increase you pay 'dearly' !!
Everyone [most professional athletes] can run 100 M in 11 seconds. 20 people in the world can run it in 10 seconds & only 3 can run it under 10 seconds....So my point is - high end is about that last 1 second - rather last 1/10th of a second !!

Well put.

Yes, to traverse the B to C distance one needs a Jeep with 4x4. Or a Land Rover or Lancruiser or Hummer if one wants to do in great style and comfort. The operative word here is 'purpose built'.

Perhaps sometimes at the cost severely diminishing returns

Let's continue in fresh thread and spare Jenson more of our raves and rants

 

[Hiten]

OK since you all are continuing and it looks like OP is on same subject.

Sir,
You may buy a Porsche 911 Turbo for 1.5 + Crore & it will not take you off the Mumbai Pune Expressway into your lavish Pawna Farm House. You will have to use a Range Rover / M Class / X Series etc. for that.
So the point being every product has its purpose.
Road & Car go hand in hand - Speaker & Amplifier go hand in hand.
Each has to be mated 'correctly'


The Lars is a 300B [Tube] based amplifier that gives to you 32 watts - show me any other amp in the world that can do that ? Please....All will give to you 8 or 16 watts @ max - so that is why the product costs the amount that it does - at the top - for a small increase you pay 'dearly' !!

Brother, What small increase are you talking about ?
Is Srajan Ebaen lying or telling the truth ? Generally it is perceived that in western countries with strict laws a person's or a companies reputation is very well protected. So I will presume he is not lying otherwise people would have filed lawsuits against him. He I think is respected reviewer and that website has responsibility to post such reviews. so copy pasting from his review.

Unless theLars sees a 4-ohm load, its power rating halves to 10 watts to revert more or less to any ordinary 300B SET.

For a 76,000 20-watt 300B amp, theLars would have to spout premium parts such as Cobalt-core silver-wound output transformers, original Western Electric bulbs with NOS compatriots, Duelund capacitors, Siltech G6 wiring and such. It doesn't. For the glowing bits, it instead runs a Chinese NOS 6N9P input valve "selected for good balance between its two halves"; two triode-connected JJ 6V6GT pentode drivers; two JJ GZ34/5AR4 rectifiers; and two JJ 300B power triodes. Those who insist on more upscale EAT, EML, TJ or WE output tubes must provide their own. Ditto for fancier drivers and rectifiers. And so forth.

They needs 4 ohms load (I think I read somewhere tube amps require high impedance load) and there are no well made parts used and The designer did not bothered to answer the reviewer's query that what improvements or modifications are made to increase its price six times from original price at the launch.
Now here is 300B high power amp. costing just Rs. 2,00,000.
specification of SE-6BQ5 The dude (must be a honest guy) has even put screen (oscilloscope ?) so one can see measurements. how cool is that. He must be proud of his design. Now please explain where has Lars Engstrom put Rs. 48 lacs.

can run 100 M in 11 seconds. 20 people in the world can run it in 10 seconds & only 3 can run it under 10 seconds....So my point is - high end is about that last 1 second - rather last 1/10th of a second !!

Lars Engstrm is not running 100M he has made it 90M so he reaches there in 9 seconds.

but an indica or swift can jump in the breaker very easily without much efforts.

srini are you talking about my 30 year old pioneer amp ?
:lol: just kidding.
Regards

 

[srinisundar]

srini are you talking about my 30 year old pioneer amp ?
:lol: just kidding.
Regards

Hiten,

Yes!!Thanks for head up about your 30year old Pioneer amp absolutely i am referring to some old amps and speakers which were still roaming around the audiophile market with pride which have less power but stable enough to generate huge fans around

 

[prem]

Hi Hiten


I think initially Lars used to sell for about US $ 20000. And then it shot up to US $ 75000. I do not think reviewers take kindly to such drastic price increase without a proper explanation. This is similar to the Audiopax story. They used to retail for about US $ 8000. Suddenly it got some favorable reviews and Jim Smith thought it was a great match with the Avant Gardes and the price shot upwards of US $ 20000. That was pretty much end of Audiopax.