Class D is still not as good in 2024?

[Decadent_Spectre]

Whats the impediment to full retirement?

Nothing.

 

[panditji]

I feel that the reason for less class d in flagships is that ultra high end audio is very niche and most customers are gullible, and class d requires a lot more up front design investment, which may not be immediately apparent to the end user, and may not be recoupable, while a typical design with a few tweaks here and there, snake oil components, exotic materials, some very nice design, a nice sounding transfer characteristic and weapons grade marketing will be more successful commercially with more certainty. It's like trying to sell a Japanese superbike to a Harley Davidson fan with the underlying assumption that a biker would always go for better performance.

So why bother trying to play to a crowd who are inherently suspicious of your approach?

Very well said sir... Agree completely...

 

[Analogous]

Nothing.

A bit like class A

 

[square_wave]

I love the way he points out how we may be mistaking the forest for the trees…

So many variables combine and contribute to produce the sound in any music set up.

The end result is how the listener feels during and after the experience. And that too varies depending on the mood of the listener, the expectations, the company he/she listens with, the visual aesthetic, the amount invested, the listening experience and skill and preexisting biases.

We may ask “where’s the fun in active speakers?” But Putzeys tactfully segues to “younger customers” who are the future market without getting at older customers who have grown up with older and matured tech, who are most likely to be set in their beliefs, opinions and convictions.

Thanks for sharing this insightful post, @square_wave

The world is changing fast. Very few people in the newer generation, even if they love high fidelity reproduction of music in their home, will appreciate the prices or the weight and size of traditional audio gear. The relevance of lighter, smaller and easier to integrate high fidelity devices will increase as time goes by. Just imagine if technology can bring the performance of the top level class d monoblocks into a nice and cute cabinet that is light, good to look at and will integrate nicely into people's lives ? Currently such lower priced devices are compromised in quality or the good ones are too expensive. That is where I see the relevance of class d.

When you push performance with traditional classes, the size, weight and price increases quite a bit. There is nothing you can do about it because the technology has reached its limit. For traditional audiophiles like us, it works though.

 

[bhooshaniyer]

The world is changing fast. Very few people in the newer generation, even if they love high fidelity reproduction of music in their home, will appreciate the prices or the weight and size of traditional audio gear. The relevance of lighter, smaller and easier to integrate high fidelity devices will increase as time goes by. Just imagine if technology can bring the performance of the top level class d monoblocks into a nice and cute cabinet that is light, good to look at and will integrate nicely into people's lives ? Currently such lower priced devices are compromised in quality or the good ones are too expensive. That is where I see the relevance of class d.

When you push performance with traditional classes, the size, weight and price increases quite a bit. There is nothing you can do about it because the technology has reached its limit. For traditional audiophiles like us, it works though.

For the new gen and changed world it is bluetooth soundbars and class d built in systems- not separates. To push class d into separates market dominated by audiophiles is to put a round peg into a square hole(or vice versa).

 

[square_wave]

For the new gen and changed world it is bluetooth soundbars and class d built in systems- not separates. To push class d into separates market dominated by audiophiles is to put a round peg into a square hole(or vice versa).

So, these new gen devices will obviously be usually all in ones. Amp, dac, streamer/photo stage built into one device. But will come with stellar sound quality as well. At least sound quality that will impress 90 percent of the new gen demographic.

Look at the Eversolo DMPA10. All in one device but still costs more than 4 L. A traditional audiophile will not fancy it due to it being an all in one nor is it attractive to a new generation music lover due to its price. No amplification too. It is still probably a successful product because many curious rich audiophiles may buy it. These things will evolve and get cheaper as time goes by.

The traditional market will remain but will become smaller. We are all endangered species.

 

[prem]

Today most of the high end active studio monitors use class D amplification.

These are the monitors on which albums today are recorded, mixed and mastered.

 

[bhooshaniyer]

Today most of the high end active studio monitors use class D amplification.

These are the monitors on which albums today are recorded, mixed and mastered.

What's your amplifier?

 

[prem]

Right now my speakers can take only a max of 6 watts. Hence am using a tube amplifier.

But if my speakers needed like 200-400 watts, I would definitely look at a class D.

 

[sidvee]

I am a bit confused, when one refers to class D in this heated discussion, - is it chip based ultra cheap ones from China like Aiyma with external wall wart supplies, or module based mid priced ones from Hypex, Purifi, Pascal, GAN (from VTV, Buckeye, apollon and the like etc) with internal switching power supplies, or further the ones with inbuilt toroidal linear power supplies (like nuprime etc)? I think there is a significant difference in musicality between all these, as I owned all variations, though perhaps not much of an audible difference in measurements.
I wish there is some clarity when one discusses this class of amplifiers lumping a $150 chip amp. with a $1500 one with decent modules and inbuilt power supply, won't really throw a light on these type of discussions, at-least ime.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[square_wave]

@sidvee
From what I have seen so far, development in class d is being pursued in two distinct directions.

1. High end without the worry about the class itself. There are manufacturers who are trying to leverage the benefits of class d and take it to the next level.
2. Class d being used by manufacturers to bring costs down and make lighter and more socially acceptable devices that will attract the newer generation to get the benefits of hi fidelity in their life too. With all the dev happening in this space, there is a hope that costs will come further down in the future without losing fidelity in the process.

In the later parts of the discussion, I was focussing on the second one. I have been talking to some product managers in the space and...that apparently is the hottest subject in the progressive circles in the industry these days. Taking mainstream traditional hifi to the new generation using a more friendly technology and industrial design. These have nothing to do with the cheap chip amps coming from china these days. Some of them with the right kind of speaker match sounds pretty decent though. That is a parallel side industry.

 

[bhooshaniyer]

Right now my speakers can take only a max of 6 watts. Hence am using a tube amplifier.

But if my speakers needed like 200-400 watts, I would definitely look at a class D.

But they don't and you don't. I very much doubt if you would buy such speakers and a class d amp.

 

[bhooshaniyer]

My point is this guys. Dont mislead budding audiophiles with class d recommendation that you don't practice yourself.

Dont recommend stuff you don't use and you haven't tried yourself. Someone so passionate about music. Especially analog music and bollywood and ghazals and qawali and jazz and classical and deep baritone etc shd be shown the correct path - hand on heart will you use those class d amps in your main setup? If not pls refrain.
This is what I can recommend to passionate audiophiles. I do the second. But I will try the first when i get the chance.

1. high efficiency large speakers ( if room permits ) with wet set amp and higher end sources to match the system

2 for those that don't have the room and/or the budget then two-way Bookshelves with well matched 100 watts class ab and medium to higher end sources to match the system.

I wouldnt try class d and hence can't recommend to others.

 

[prem]

But they don't and you don't. I very much doubt if you would buy such speakers and a class d amp.

The next speakers a few years down the line I am likely to get will be active speakers and chances are they will have class D amplification.

I appreciate your sentiments but I don’t know on what basis you are making an assumption I will not be trying a class D amp.

It’s just that right now I am in the vintage mood. Hence it’s all typically low power amps. But in the past I have had amps putting out 400 watts at 8 ohms.

 

[prem]

There’s this constant hue and cry about audiophiles should not be using SMPS.

But in the past I had a David Berning class A zero feedback OTL amp which used SMPS.

The SMPS specially designed by Berning was outstanding. It had 5 levels of filtration with power factor correction. Berning apparently designs power supplies for NASA and owns a few patents.

From the day I heard the SMPS implementation in the Berning amp, I changed my opinion.

Today Atmasphere has class D amps which are extremely highly spoken of. I believe the Mola Mola amps are also very good.

 

[chander]

The only redemption to the aging ears and slow but steady decline in hearing is the experience and "beliefs". You take those away and you are just slowing going deaf.

I have personally spoken to a few studio recording engineers - you might not have heard of them but they have experience & they can't tell the difference between class D and a class AB. Now I understand the manufacturer debate, cost & ease of implementation & all that, but wouldn't the recording engineers be the biggest proponent of Class A or Tube systems if their art can only be enjoyed to it's full potential on such systems?

The best thing you can do to a budding audiophile - is give them a knock on the head and tell them to do something better with their time and money, however given as humans we love to suffer with company -
1 - I would certainly tell the "bud" - to listen to more music & maybe recommend them some music they haven't yet explored.
2 - & I will personally definitely recommend a listen to Class D & active systems & class AB systems & class A systems and tube systems & everything else. I will never tell a "newcomer" that there is only one right way to do things - that is like putting blinders on a horse.

& BTW - I have both class AB & Class D systems.

****Please know I am not saying Class D is better or worse, we all hear very differently and in the end it has to sound right to you, not to some guy on a forum on the internet. We just have to accept that "different strokes for different folks".

 

[prem]

Today high end speakers like Avantgarde and Vandersteen are using class D amps for their powered bass. This was unthinkable a decade ago.

REL today uses class AB amp in their entry level subs and uses class D in their high end subs. I am sure there must be some reason for it.

 

[square_wave]

My point is this guys. Dont mislead budding audiophiles with class d recommendation that you don't practice yourself.

Dont recommend stuff you don't use and you haven't tried yourself. Someone so passionate about music. Especially analog music and bollywood and ghazals and qawali and jazz and classical and deep baritone etc shd be shown the correct path - hand on heart will you use those class d amps in your main setup? If not pls refrain.
This is what I can recommend to passionate audiophiles. I do the second. But I will try the first when i get the chance.

1. high efficiency large speakers ( if room permits ) with wet set amp and higher end sources to match the system

2 for those that don't have the room and/or the budget then two-way Bookshelves with well matched 100 watts class ab and medium to higher end sources to match the system.

I wouldnt try class d and hence can't recommend to others.

Appreciate this but I think you are going on a different tangent than the discussion itself. No one on this thread (at least not me), is recommending class d as an alternative to the 2 scenarios you mentioned in this post.

The discussion, as far as I can see is a discussion about the current trends in dev and general situation with class d.

There are horses for courses and in some specific situations class d is the preferred way to go and a certain part of the industry is moving towards that and making progress there because class a/b is inappropriate there due to weight/size issues. These are aimed at a certain demographic who are cost and design conscious.

Also, class d is being pursued in high end without the worry about the class itself by a small niche in the industry and they have achieved great success.

These are facts.

In the current scenario, I would give a budding audiophile the same advice you have mentioned in your post. Especially the second one. The first one is a very subjective choice.

 

[bhooshaniyer]

From the day I heard the SMPS implementation in the Berning amp, I changed my opinion.

Changed your opinion about all SMPS?

 

[bhooshaniyer]

I appreciate your sentiments but I don’t know on what basis you are making an assumption I will not be trying a class D amp.

I have seen videos of your (outstanding) setup and heard what it sounded like for what extent you goto set it up. You are so far away from using a class d or actives.i am sure when if and when you do actives it will be over engineered nasa grade class d.