Class D is still not as good in 2024?
- Thread starter Analogous
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bhooshaniyer
Active Member
What's your amplifier?
I am a bit confused, when one refers to class D in this heated discussion, - is it chip based ultra cheap ones from China like Aiyma with external wall wart supplies, or module based mid priced ones from Hypex, Purifi, Pascal, GAN (from VTV, Buckeye, apollon and the like etc) with internal switching power supplies, or further the ones with inbuilt toroidal linear power supplies (like nuprime etc)? I think there is a significant difference in musicality between all these, as I owned all variations, though perhaps not much of an audible difference in measurements.
I wish there is some clarity when one discusses this class of amplifiers lumping a $150 chip amp. with a $1500 one with decent modules and inbuilt power supply, won't really throw a light on these type of discussions, at-least ime.
Cheers,
Sid
I wish there is some clarity when one discusses this class of amplifiers lumping a $150 chip amp. with a $1500 one with decent modules and inbuilt power supply, won't really throw a light on these type of discussions, at-least ime.
Cheers,
Sid
square_wave
Well-Known Member
@sidvee
From what I have seen so far, development in class d is being pursued in two distinct directions.
1. High end without the worry about the class itself. There are manufacturers who are trying to leverage the benefits of class d and take it to the next level.
2. Class d being used by manufacturers to bring costs down and make lighter and more socially acceptable devices that will attract the newer generation to get the benefits of hi fidelity in their life too. With all the dev happening in this space, there is a hope that costs will come further down in the future without losing fidelity in the process.
In the later parts of the discussion, I was focussing on the second one. I have been talking to some product managers in the space and...that apparently is the hottest subject in the progressive circles in the industry these days. Taking mainstream traditional hifi to the new generation using a more friendly technology and industrial design. These have nothing to do with the cheap chip amps coming from china these days. Some of them with the right kind of speaker match sounds pretty decent though. That is a parallel side industry.
From what I have seen so far, development in class d is being pursued in two distinct directions.
1. High end without the worry about the class itself. There are manufacturers who are trying to leverage the benefits of class d and take it to the next level.
2. Class d being used by manufacturers to bring costs down and make lighter and more socially acceptable devices that will attract the newer generation to get the benefits of hi fidelity in their life too. With all the dev happening in this space, there is a hope that costs will come further down in the future without losing fidelity in the process.
In the later parts of the discussion, I was focussing on the second one. I have been talking to some product managers in the space and...that apparently is the hottest subject in the progressive circles in the industry these days. Taking mainstream traditional hifi to the new generation using a more friendly technology and industrial design. These have nothing to do with the cheap chip amps coming from china these days. Some of them with the right kind of speaker match sounds pretty decent though. That is a parallel side industry.
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bhooshaniyer
Active Member
But they don't and you don't. I very much doubt if you would buy such speakers and a class d amp.
bhooshaniyer
Active Member
My point is this guys. Dont mislead budding audiophiles with class d recommendation that you don't practice yourself.
Dont recommend stuff you don't use and you haven't tried yourself. Someone so passionate about music. Especially analog music and bollywood and ghazals and qawali and jazz and classical and deep baritone etc shd be shown the correct path - hand on heart will you use those class d amps in your main setup? If not pls refrain.
This is what I can recommend to passionate audiophiles. I do the second. But I will try the first when i get the chance.
1. high efficiency large speakers ( if room permits ) with wet set amp and higher end sources to match the system
2 for those that don't have the room and/or the budget then two-way Bookshelves with well matched 100 watts class ab and medium to higher end sources to match the system.
I wouldnt try class d and hence can't recommend to others.
Dont recommend stuff you don't use and you haven't tried yourself. Someone so passionate about music. Especially analog music and bollywood and ghazals and qawali and jazz and classical and deep baritone etc shd be shown the correct path - hand on heart will you use those class d amps in your main setup? If not pls refrain.
This is what I can recommend to passionate audiophiles. I do the second. But I will try the first when i get the chance.
1. high efficiency large speakers ( if room permits ) with wet set amp and higher end sources to match the system
2 for those that don't have the room and/or the budget then two-way Bookshelves with well matched 100 watts class ab and medium to higher end sources to match the system.
I wouldnt try class d and hence can't recommend to others.
The next speakers a few years down the line I am likely to get will be active speakers and chances are they will have class D amplification.
I appreciate your sentiments but I don’t know on what basis you are making an assumption I will not be trying a class D amp.
It’s just that right now I am in the vintage mood. Hence it’s all typically low power amps. But in the past I have had amps putting out 400 watts at 8 ohms.
There’s this constant hue and cry about audiophiles should not be using SMPS.
But in the past I had a David Berning class A zero feedback OTL amp which used SMPS.
The SMPS specially designed by Berning was outstanding. It had 5 levels of filtration with power factor correction. Berning apparently designs power supplies for NASA and owns a few patents.
From the day I heard the SMPS implementation in the Berning amp, I changed my opinion.
Today Atmasphere has class D amps which are extremely highly spoken of. I believe the Mola Mola amps are also very good.
But in the past I had a David Berning class A zero feedback OTL amp which used SMPS.
The SMPS specially designed by Berning was outstanding. It had 5 levels of filtration with power factor correction. Berning apparently designs power supplies for NASA and owns a few patents.
From the day I heard the SMPS implementation in the Berning amp, I changed my opinion.
Today Atmasphere has class D amps which are extremely highly spoken of. I believe the Mola Mola amps are also very good.
The only redemption to the aging ears and slow but steady decline in hearing is the experience and "beliefs". You take those away and you are just slowing going deaf.
I have personally spoken to a few studio recording engineers - you might not have heard of them but they have experience & they can't tell the difference between class D and a class AB. Now I understand the manufacturer debate, cost & ease of implementation & all that, but wouldn't the recording engineers be the biggest proponent of Class A or Tube systems if their art can only be enjoyed to it's full potential on such systems?
The best thing you can do to a budding audiophile - is give them a knock on the head and tell them to do something better with their time and money, however given as humans we love to suffer with company -
1 - I would certainly tell the "bud" - to listen to more music & maybe recommend them some music they haven't yet explored.
2 - & I will personally definitely recommend a listen to Class D & active systems & class AB systems & class A systems and tube systems & everything else. I will never tell a "newcomer" that there is only one right way to do things - that is like putting blinders on a horse.
& BTW - I have both class AB & Class D systems.
****Please know I am not saying Class D is better or worse, we all hear very differently and in the end it has to sound right to you, not to some guy on a forum on the internet. We just have to accept that "different strokes for different folks".
I have personally spoken to a few studio recording engineers - you might not have heard of them but they have experience & they can't tell the difference between class D and a class AB. Now I understand the manufacturer debate, cost & ease of implementation & all that, but wouldn't the recording engineers be the biggest proponent of Class A or Tube systems if their art can only be enjoyed to it's full potential on such systems?
The best thing you can do to a budding audiophile - is give them a knock on the head and tell them to do something better with their time and money, however given as humans we love to suffer with company -
1 - I would certainly tell the "bud" - to listen to more music & maybe recommend them some music they haven't yet explored.
2 - & I will personally definitely recommend a listen to Class D & active systems & class AB systems & class A systems and tube systems & everything else. I will never tell a "newcomer" that there is only one right way to do things - that is like putting blinders on a horse.
& BTW - I have both class AB & Class D systems.
****Please know I am not saying Class D is better or worse, we all hear very differently and in the end it has to sound right to you, not to some guy on a forum on the internet. We just have to accept that "different strokes for different folks".
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Today high end speakers like Avantgarde and Vandersteen are using class D amps for their powered bass. This was unthinkable a decade ago.
REL today uses class AB amp in their entry level subs and uses class D in their high end subs. I am sure there must be some reason for it.
REL today uses class AB amp in their entry level subs and uses class D in their high end subs. I am sure there must be some reason for it.
square_wave
Well-Known Member
Appreciate this but I think you are going on a different tangent than the discussion itself. No one on this thread (at least not me), is recommending class d as an alternative to the 2 scenarios you mentioned in this post.
The discussion, as far as I can see is a discussion about the current trends in dev and general situation with class d.
There are horses for courses and in some specific situations class d is the preferred way to go and a certain part of the industry is moving towards that and making progress there because class a/b is inappropriate there due to weight/size issues. These are aimed at a certain demographic who are cost and design conscious.
Also, class d is being pursued in high end without the worry about the class itself by a small niche in the industry and they have achieved great success.
These are facts.
In the current scenario, I would give a budding audiophile the same advice you have mentioned in your post. Especially the second one. The first one is a very subjective choice.
bhooshaniyer
Active Member
Changed your opinion about all SMPS?
bhooshaniyer
Active Member
I have seen videos of your (outstanding) setup and heard what it sounded like for what extent you goto set it up. You are so far away from using a class d or actives.i am sure when if and when you do actives it will be over engineered nasa grade class d.
bhooshaniyer
Active Member
Subs using class d is par for the course. It runs parallel to speaker discussion. I am just disheartened to see you guys liberally recommend class d. Someone is going to get stuck financially with a class d amp that doesn't satisfy nor sell.
morerajendra5678
New Member
Opinion in any case cannot be for all items of the same class. For ex - In your case you prefer a new audiophile (with budget constraint ) to start with bookshelf speakers and Class AB amplifier. Does this imply that all Class AB amplifiers out there in the market are good? Cannot be. There are always amplifiers in any class which have good implementation and there will be amplifiers in any class in which implementation is not so good.
bhooshaniyer
Active Member
That's a strawman argument.
1. I did not say any class ab. I said "well matched" which I meant to imply that if it's highly revealing 5 lacs higher end bookshelf than a class ab matching it standards. If it's a 30k mission speakers than a suitably matched class ab.
2. Secondly, Finding a good class ab amp and an LPS in the market is the norm not the exception. And conversely finding a good class d/smps is the exception.
It's plain i am belabouring the point so that you don't use exceptions to make the case for class d. There are some apex predator brands selling commercial class D. Someone is going to buy say a 2 lacs class d and hurt badly
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morerajendra5678
New Member
My understanding is that all these Class A, Class AB, Class D etc are just technologies. There are amplifiers with good implementations of each class in the market. You believe in superiority of Class AB amplifiers so you recommend amplifiers to anyone seeking advice from you based on your what you believe and there is nothing wrong in it.
But at the end of the day it is usual for any audiophile looking to make purchase of new amplifier to seek recommendation from more than one source and make purchase only after suitable audition.
You are recommending what you believe in and it is the duty of the audiophile making purchase to ensure that the recommended system is also good enough for him.
bhooshaniyer
Active Member
Its not just about the superiority- it's about the large safe tent under that umbrella with many exit, upgrade paths, a well worn path that we all have personally walked. With you on caveat emptor.
In the new Hindi lps thread also i was saying similar things. I don't want people to get stuck with bad stuff.
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morerajendra5678
New Member
You recommend what you believe in and hence you are doing full justice to your role when someone seeks advice from you.
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