Class D is still not as good in 2024?
- Thread starter Analogous
- Start date
I'm glad you asked. I run the Fosi ZA3 monoblocks and while they're excellent for the price to power loudspeakers generally below the 1L price point where the shortcomings of the Fosi are glossed over, it is when you introduce more capable loudspeakers that the Marantz distinguishes itself with authority.
To begin with and while on the point of authority, the bass is more authoritative/stronger on the Marantz and it is easier to track note to note distinction, especially when driving the Spendor Classic 2/3, Tannoy Definition DC8, Dynaudio Focus 160 or for that matter, even the Wharfedale Evo 4.2.
Then there's the refinement and resolution/texture in the mids and highs of the M1 that truly separates it from the Fosi ZA3 monoblocks.
While the Fosi sounds more full bodied at first blush (similar to a class A/B amp) when using my Eversolo A8 or Zen Stream + RME ADI-2 DAC FS, voices sound shallow and shouty in comparison to the M1 which has a suppleness, transparency and depth to each note, making it much easier to track and appreciate minor inflections which go unnoticed, if not entirely lost, with the Fosi.
Then there are the highs - despite being more prominent in this region than the Fosi, the M1 is so much more refined that you'd rather turn up the treble than down. The Fosi is what I would describe as dry - not as dry as the stereos you hear in your car but the M1 shows that there are levels to this game.
Being better in any one of these attributes would make the M1 a better amp but it is the confluence of all the abovementioned factors and the finesse and maturity with which the Marantz ties it together to present an interesting sound with a purposeful tonality that sets it apart as an accomplished piece.
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square_wave
Well-Known Member
Class D has reached a stage where it is totally in the game. Now it is all about the implementation. Also, how it is matched to a particular loudspeaker.
There are always audiophiles who crave for a certain type of sound that only comes with certain type of topology. You can never satisfy such people with anything else. But that is how the game is!
If one approaches with an open mind and the goal is high quality sound that true to source, class D delivers in spades.
There are always audiophiles who crave for a certain type of sound that only comes with certain type of topology. You can never satisfy such people with anything else. But that is how the game is!
If one approaches with an open mind and the goal is high quality sound that true to source, class D delivers in spades.
bhooshaniyer
Active Member
The audiophile community size in itself is so miniscule world over and they take no chances and over engineer as they climb the ladder. What's the incentive for them to take a chance with class d? Why would they buy expensive cables, dacs,.speakers and then connect it with class d?? In the hope that it's almost there on par with class ab? They would rather just get a class a and breathe easy as they climb. Or worst case simply get a class ab that they know is on par with class ab.
Rest of the people in this planet are enjoying their music on bt headphone, soundbar and in ear wired phones.drivem by phones so how does class d fit in there?
Ps: I can certainly imagine me getting a class d amp if I had a second or a third compact setup or something. In that case it would be something like wiim amp. Cheap cheap.
reignofchaos
Well-Known Member
I agree with @bhooshaniyer here. Audiophiles don't like to experiment outside the norm. It ends up being a money pit. They will rather go with conventional topologies which are known for a long time and can be sold in case things don't work out. Why experiment?
Experimentation should be limited to second or third setups where maybe space is an issue or one is not too serious.
Experimentation should be limited to second or third setups where maybe space is an issue or one is not too serious.
This is hugely subjective and not correct at all in the real world in my experience. I have simultaneously run setups in A, AB, and D with the same intervening components and the speaker being the same. The differences if any were not worth categorizing them.
bhooshaniyer
Active Member
Certainly it's subjective. It's all relative to our room,speakers resolution,. setup etc to perceive the difference. Given a setup it's possible to say if class d vs class a or midfi turntable vs higher end turntable or cheap wiim vs rose will show up on comparison or not. Just because it(comparison) doesn't shine a bright light in a given setup, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.or won't show up in another setup.
For a speaker depending on its parameters and the area it needs to push itself, you need amls with certain specs irrespective of its category. When it comes to SS, you can have amps that will fullfill the need irrespective of its class. I wont include tube as it is of a different topology.
square_wave
Well-Known Member
I agree with you. That is why I run a class A/B myself. However I know a few people who can afford anything but use very well designed class D. Chosen after many auditions. I have also been impressed by a few designs.
My comment was purely aimed at the technology.
Even a few years ago, they sounded quite amazing. I remember listening to a system running a pair of Merrill audio Veritas mono blocks. I think the preamp was a tubed one. Lovely sounding setup.
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bhooshaniyer
Active Member
My argument is that I as an audiophile(??), I have no affilation or pet feeling towards class d- to look at it misry eyes and say beta tu bada hogaya. I care two hoots if it has come a long way or one day it will nearly match the class ab sound or whatever..i have no stake in making it and wind energy and solar panels and electric vehicles successful. If it is the thing one day that will be the only thing and I will buy it then.
square_wave
Well-Known Member
There are people who run reference grade systems on really well reviewed and reputed class D amps. They are not cheap by any standards. It is also a matter of taste.
square_wave
Well-Known Member
From industry sources, this is what I hear.
If you want good sound from class A or AB, there are tried and tested outstanding designs already out there. One only has to bring exemplary production standards and assemble them. They will sound outstanding.
But class D is a different animal. It is easy to make a cheap class d amp that will sound better than an entry level class A/B amplifier. However as you go up the cost ladder in the market at mid-high segments, you have to compete with better class A or A/B designs. That is where ingenuity comes into play. That is where the men are easily separated from the children by discerning ears. Even in this space, some class D designs compete very well to the point that it is only a matter of preference.
Once you reach the top ( high end ) levels, Class A/AB typically rule.
When I was picking up a new amp, I tried one mid fi (~3L) class D amp at my house, while playing things like string quartets and small jazz ensembles, if you noticed the highs, the amp was doing something to smoothen it up. Audible even when a bow hits the string. Some of the dynamics is muted. My older class A tube amp used to just release it all with a touch of grace. As if it is saying that it has nothing to be scared of! The Leema amp which I eventually bought releases the top end really well but does it like how a good class A/B should. With some level of constraint to contain any harshness but you hear it all ..body, shimmer..attack, sustain and decay. Most budget and mid level class D does something to the sound that I dont necessarily like. This anomaly is usually at the top portions of the freq spectrum incl the upper midrange. They control it like a strict and stern school teacher. I think there is some inherent issue at those freq levels for class D so they are doing something to fix it. The rest of the spectrum is exemplary. I guess the cost and engineering gets really high if you want to fix those issues while leveraging all the benefits of class D on the lower regions of the spectrum.
Someone should listen to this class D design by Atmasphere. Knowing those fellas, I am sure they wont make something that will not sound very good.
Atma-Sphere Class D - preliminary
Monoblock class D amplifer hand made in the USA.
www.atma-sphere.com
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reignofchaos
Well-Known Member
Class D is limited in bandwidth due to limited switching frequencies - even the state of the art ganfet amps like AGD have only around 18 bits of usable dynamic range. This lack of bandwidth will be most apparent in higher frequencies where dithering will be used to cover up deficiencies. I heard this in the NAD I have in the secondary system too.
bhooshaniyer
Active Member
See the thing is i have no interest in investigating where class d is and constantly track it on its incremental improvements of class d in itself. That's for makers and promoters of those amps to worry about- not me. I am interested in the best possible sound for my current system and for my next upgrade.From industry sources, this is what I hear.
If you want good sound from class A or AB, there are tried and tested outstanding designs already out there. One only has to bring exemplary production standards and assemble them. They will sound outstanding.
But class D is a different animal. It is easy to make a cheap class d amp that will sound better than an entry level class A/B amplifier. However as you go up the cost ladder in the market at mid-high segments, you have to compete with better class A or A/B designs. That is where ingenuity comes into play. That is where the men are easily separated from the children by discerning ears. Even in this space, some class D designs compete very well to the point that it is only a matter of preference.
Once you reach the top ( high end ) levels, Class A/AB typically rule.
When I was picking up a new amp, I tried one mid fi (~3L) class D amp at my house, while playing things like string quartets and small jazz ensembles, if you noticed the highs, the amp was doing something to smoothen it up. Audible even when a bow hits the string. Some of the dynamics is muted. My older class A tube amp used to just release it all with a touch of grace. As if it is saying that it has nothing to be scared of! The Leema amp which I eventually bought releases the top end really well but does it like how a good class A/B should. With some level of constraint to contain any harshness but you hear it all ..body, shimmer..attack, sustain and decay. Most budget and mid level class D does something to the sound that I dont necessarily like. This anomaly is usually at the top portions of the freq spectrum incl the upper midrange. They control it like a strict and stern school teacher. I think there is some inherent issue at those freq levels for class D so they are doing something to fix it. The rest of the spectrum is exemplary. I guess the cost and engineering gets really high if you want to fix those issues while leveraging all the benefits of class D on the lower regions of the spectrum.
Someone should listen to this class D design by Atmasphere. Knowing those fellas, I am sure they wont make something that will not sound very good.
Atma-Sphere Class D - preliminary
Monoblock class D amplifer hand made in the USA.
I mean why does a guy -- who worries about say earthing, power quality, power conditioning, about first press of the records, the best edition of cds, best cd player tech, best dac for his preference, curated DSD and wav collection running on a nas with roon core utilising the best in class streaming technology with sfp, external clocks, turntable with sut and high end phono, connected using 100% pure copper cables selected for perfect capacitance etc -- need a class d? He needs a class d like he needs a kick up his nuts.
In 2025, u don't look at which Class it is. If a person wants the best, go for the flagships. And currently, the flagships of quite a few are Class D. Let the ears decide the rest.
bhooshaniyer
Active Member
And the reason for that is they want to reduce their.bom cost and increase profitability as the sales are declining constantly. It's optimization not improvement. So i avoid again.
morerajendra5678
New Member
This is one of the most interesting threads. As per my understanding, we have good class A, class A/AB as well as class D amps in the market. Now comes price brackets. Through this thread we can come up with quality Class A, Class A/AB and Class D amps available in each price bracket. This will be of immense help for those who want to have a taste of amps as per his budget and class of his preference.
At the same time there is no denying the fact that there has been immense improvement in designs of Class D amps. But we cannot claim that this is the best design. Has the Class D matured enough? As per my opinion it has otherwise we won't have seen such wide use of Class D amps. Even Class D amps now have been put to service in Pro Audio world to a good extent. This confirms the fact that Class D amps are also reliable and some of them sound good and have other advantages.
It is very true that even for home hifi having Class D amp with tube pre gives excellent results but this is also true for any good sounding Class A and Class AB amps. Adding a tube pre amp adds to the warmth of the sound.
At the end of the day we want to enjoy music. This thread can serve as a guide for someone looking to start audiophile journey, someone looking for upgrade of amplifier, someone wanting to add more warmth to his system.
greenhorn
Well-Known Member
I feel that the reason for less class d in flagships is that ultra high end audio is very niche and most customers are gullible, and class d requires a lot more up front design investment, which may not be immediately apparent to the end user, and may not be recoupable, while a typical design with a few tweaks here and there, snake oil components, exotic materials, some very nice design, a nice sounding transfer characteristic and weapons grade marketing will be more successful commercially with more certainty. It's like trying to sell a Japanese superbike to a Harley Davidson fan with the underlying assumption that a biker would always go for better performance.
So why bother trying to play to a crowd who are inherently suspicious of your approach?
So why bother trying to play to a crowd who are inherently suspicious of your approach?
bhooshaniyer
Active Member
You make it sound like a big organized scam. There are 40 people making stuff and some 400 people buying things. Miniscule market. In that scheme of things even an entry level marantz amp is a niche product made for a discerning user only with limited budget. This whole class d premise is - it has come a long way but never that it's inherently better sounding than class ab/a. It's always some hand wringing and some mumbo jumbo on hypex and implementation. When the best of a new tech is only nearly as good as the old (class ab. Let alone class a and tubes)what's in it for a serious audiophile? This argument that some how the consumers don't appreciate this greatest thing after sliced bread is THE snake oil.
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square_wave
Well-Known Member
Not putting this here for argument but to encourage discussion.
NAD’s Director of Technology, Greg Stidsen, had this to say: “Like all amplifier classes, there are advantages and disadvantages to class-D. What is attractive about class-D is its relative efficiency and freedom from the vagaries of parts quality. In a linear amplifier such as class-A or class-AB, parts-matching and very close tolerances are required to get the best results, and even then, there is a limit to performance since the linearity of semiconductors varies considerably with temperature.
“With class-D, it’s more the quality of the mathematics and engineering that determines the performance,” Greg said. “Another way of saying this is that in a linear amplifier the design is fairly simple, but the execution is critical; in a switching amplifier, the design is very difficult, but the execution is straightforward.”
NAD’s Director of Technology, Greg Stidsen, had this to say: “Like all amplifier classes, there are advantages and disadvantages to class-D. What is attractive about class-D is its relative efficiency and freedom from the vagaries of parts quality. In a linear amplifier such as class-A or class-AB, parts-matching and very close tolerances are required to get the best results, and even then, there is a limit to performance since the linearity of semiconductors varies considerably with temperature.
“With class-D, it’s more the quality of the mathematics and engineering that determines the performance,” Greg said. “Another way of saying this is that in a linear amplifier the design is fairly simple, but the execution is critical; in a switching amplifier, the design is very difficult, but the execution is straightforward.”
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