Class D is still not as good in 2024?

[dean14]

In my opinion, the joke is more on "reviews" that are based on listening and people who make purchase decisions based on these reviews. It's a given that everyone hears differently, each room affects the sound differently and each component affects sonics differently, right? So what value these reviewers that listen as opposed to ASR? There is no standard reference and ASR for all the bashing they get at least have a standard.
Take for example a well known reviewer reviewing speaker X with Source A by listening to it. People make a decision to buy speaker X based on that review even though they are going to hook it up with Source B.
What use is that review new canaan interior designers and how stupid to buy based off that review? Same works for ASR too. But insinuation that one is better than the other is incorrect, IMO.

Informative post

 

[kawzx7]

What revision are the class d amps at now? I mean, you've got revisions a through z, and then usually you go AA through ZZ. I can talk to a fellow class A or high bias class AB owner.And we can speak intelligently to one another. You can't do that with the budget class D crowd because you don't know what revision you're listening to. Obviously, the so-called upper echelon has class A input stages, of course to deaden the nastiness of the class D. AXPONA going to have a lot of explaining to do. I can't wait to hear the snake oil class D amplifier talk there.

 

[naks]

I am using Belcanto ref600m monos with arc ls22 tube preamp sounds fluid balanced and mellowish

they are supposed to be well good

 

[greenhorn]

View attachment 83984

Just wanted to post, yes, I can

 

[DB1989]

But Parag, do they sound better than (or as good as) the equivalent (in terms of wattage, features etc) class AB amps of the same brands?


Size and efficiency are indeed the virtues class D is based on. And they generally sound clean, very clean. The concern is whether they clean up the texture and emotion as well? At least those at entry/budget levels do. Sure there’s continuous improvement happening, but is class D technology musically there yet? Well, AB never got to class A levels either.

I believe the time has come and went where Class D has become as good as their Class AB counterparts, if not surpassed them in the budget segment also which in 2025, I consider to be <1000$ or <1L. I won't go into higher priced options because there are quite a few manufacturers out there who have been building well regarded Class D amps in the high end segment for a very long time and Class D amps have also matured in the mid-fi segment with certain manufacturers switching even their top of the line models (such as Marantz and NAD) to run on Class D.

For some time now, the Blusound Powernode has been as good as Class AB amps of an equivalent price tag, provided you also factor in the cost of a streamer into the price of an AB amp while making the comparison. It goes for a safe approach with the sound where it may not win over the enthusiast but no aspect of its performance is a distant second to equivalent Class A/B amps. I've generally found it good enough to wring out a respectable performance from speakers <2L.

Now here is where i will introduce some controversy into the discussion - the goal posts have been shifted with the Marantz M1. I suspect its better than the Class A/B counterparts that Marantz offers in the same price range - it is a good step up from the likes of the PM6006 or the SR6013 receiver and goes toe to toe with Amps in the 1.5L price range. I've heard it with a variety of speakers including the B&W 705 S3 Signatures and the sound was simply seductive, notwithstanding that it was a completely untreated space as opposed to a dedicated listening room.

In Marantz's own words, to get a step up in performance, one'll have to opt for the Marantz Model 40N and above which is 3x the price of the M1. Considering that the M1 goes for as little as 84K, I believe we're suddenly wrangling with the question of whether Class D has indeed surpassed Class AB.

 

[rwnano]

I believe the time has come and went where Class D has become as good as their Class AB counterparts, if not surpassed them in the budget segment also which in 2025, I consider to be <1000$ or <1L. I won't go into higher priced options because there are quite a few manufacturers out there who have been building well regarded Class D amps in the high end segment for a very long time and Class D amps have also matured in the mid-fi segment with certain manufacturers switching even their top of the line models (such as Marantz and NAD) to run on Class D.

For some time now, the Blusound Powernode has been as good as Class AB amps of an equivalent price tag, provided you also factor in the cost of a streamer into the price of an AB amp while making the comparison. It goes for a safe approach with the sound where it may not win over the enthusiast but no aspect of its performance is a distant second to equivalent Class A/B amps. I've generally found it good enough to wring out a respectable performance from speakers <2L.

Now here is where i will introduce some controversy into the discussion - the goal posts have been shifted with the Marantz M1. I suspect its better than the Class A/B counterparts that Marantz offers in the same price range - it is a good step up from the likes of the PM6006 or the SR6013 receiver and goes toe to toe with Amps in the 1.5L price range. I've heard it with a variety of speakers including the B&W 705 S3 Signatures and the sound was simply seductive, notwithstanding that it was a completely untreated space as opposed to a dedicated listening room.

In Marantz's own words, to get a step up in performance, one'll have to opt for the Marantz Model 40N and above which is 3x the price of the M1. Considering that the M1 goes for as little as 84K, I believe we're suddenly wrangling with the question of whether Class D has indeed surpassed Class AB.

What about comparing to fosi v3 dual monoblocks? The above mentioned amplifiers.

 

[Amarendra]

Just listen to a Bluesound Powernode or a Marantz Model M1 and this discussion will conclude. I heard both at home and was stunned by the sound. Ended up buying Marantz M1. Thanks to Darpan (DB1989)

 

[DB1989]

What about comparing to fosi v3 dual monoblocks? The above mentioned amplifiers.

I'm glad you asked. I run the Fosi ZA3 monoblocks and while they're excellent for the price to power loudspeakers generally below the 1L price point where the shortcomings of the Fosi are glossed over, it is when you introduce more capable loudspeakers that the Marantz distinguishes itself with authority.

To begin with and while on the point of authority, the bass is more authoritative/stronger on the Marantz and it is easier to track note to note distinction, especially when driving the Spendor Classic 2/3, Tannoy Definition DC8, Dynaudio Focus 160 or for that matter, even the Wharfedale Evo 4.2.

Then there's the refinement and resolution/texture in the mids and highs of the M1 that truly separates it from the Fosi ZA3 monoblocks.

While the Fosi sounds more full bodied at first blush (similar to a class A/B amp) when using my Eversolo A8 or Zen Stream + RME ADI-2 DAC FS, voices sound shallow and shouty in comparison to the M1 which has a suppleness, transparency and depth to each note, making it much easier to track and appreciate minor inflections which go unnoticed, if not entirely lost, with the Fosi.

Then there are the highs - despite being more prominent in this region than the Fosi, the M1 is so much more refined that you'd rather turn up the treble than down. The Fosi is what I would describe as dry - not as dry as the stereos you hear in your car but the M1 shows that there are levels to this game.

Being better in any one of these attributes would make the M1 a better amp but it is the confluence of all the abovementioned factors and the finesse and maturity with which the Marantz ties it together to present an interesting sound with a purposeful tonality that sets it apart as an accomplished piece.

 

[square_wave]

Class D has reached a stage where it is totally in the game. Now it is all about the implementation. Also, how it is matched to a particular loudspeaker.

There are always audiophiles who crave for a certain type of sound that only comes with certain type of topology. You can never satisfy such people with anything else. But that is how the game is!

If one approaches with an open mind and the goal is high quality sound that true to source, class D delivers in spades.

 

[bhooshaniyer]

Class D has reached a stage where it is totally in the game. Now it is all about the implementation. Also, how it is matched to a particular loudspeaker.

There are always audiophiles who crave for a certain type of sound that only comes with certain type of topology. You can never satisfy such people with anything else. But that is how the game is!

If one approaches with an open mind and the goal is high quality sound that true to source, class D delivers in spades.

The audiophile community size in itself is so miniscule world over and they take no chances and over engineer as they climb the ladder. What's the incentive for them to take a chance with class d? Why would they buy expensive cables, dacs,.speakers and then connect it with class d?? In the hope that it's almost there on par with class ab? They would rather just get a class a and breathe easy as they climb. Or worst case simply get a class ab that they know is on par with class ab.

Rest of the people in this planet are enjoying their music on bt headphone, soundbar and in ear wired phones.drivem by phones so how does class d fit in there?

Ps: I can certainly imagine me getting a class d amp if I had a second or a third compact setup or something. In that case it would be something like wiim amp. Cheap cheap.

 

[reignofchaos]

I agree with @bhooshaniyer here. Audiophiles don't like to experiment outside the norm. It ends up being a money pit. They will rather go with conventional topologies which are known for a long time and can be sold in case things don't work out. Why experiment?

Experimentation should be limited to second or third setups where maybe space is an issue or one is not too serious.

 

[Kannan]

Why would they buy expensive cables, dacs,.speakers and then connect it with class d?? In the hope that it's almost there on par with class ab?

This is hugely subjective and not correct at all in the real world in my experience. I have simultaneously run setups in A, AB, and D with the same intervening components and the speaker being the same. The differences if any were not worth categorizing them.

 

[bhooshaniyer]

Certainly it's subjective. It's all relative to our room,speakers resolution,. setup etc to perceive the difference. Given a setup it's possible to say if class d vs class a or midfi turntable vs higher end turntable or cheap wiim vs rose will show up on comparison or not. Just because it(comparison) doesn't shine a bright light in a given setup, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.or won't show up in another setup.

 

[Kannan]

Certainly it's subjective. It's all relative to our room,speakers resolution,. setup etc to perceive the difference. Given a setup it's possible to say if class d vs class a or midfi turntable vs higher end turntable or cheap wiim vs rose will show up on comparison or not. Just because it(comparison) doesn't shine a bright light in a given setup, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.or won't show up in another setup.

For a speaker depending on its parameters and the area it needs to push itself, you need amls with certain specs irrespective of its category. When it comes to SS, you can have amps that will fullfill the need irrespective of its class. I wont include tube as it is of a different topology.

 

[square_wave]

I agree with @bhooshaniyer here. Audiophiles don't like to experiment outside the norm. It ends up being a money pit. They will rather go with conventional topologies which are known for a long time and can be sold in case things don't work out. Why experiment?

Experimentation should be limited to second or third setups where maybe space is an issue or one is not too serious.

I agree with you. That is why I run a class A/B myself. However I know a few people who can afford anything but use very well designed class D. Chosen after many auditions. I have also been impressed by a few designs.

My comment was purely aimed at the technology.

Even a few years ago, they sounded quite amazing. I remember listening to a system running a pair of Merrill audio Veritas mono blocks. I think the preamp was a tubed one. Lovely sounding setup.

 

[bhooshaniyer]

I agree with you. That is why I run a class A/B myself. However I know a few people who can afford anything but use very well designed class D. Chosen after many auditions. I have also been impressed by a few designs.

My comment was purely aimed at the technology.

Even a few years ago, they sounded quite amazing. I remember listening to a system running a pair of Merrill audio Veritas mono blocks. I think the preamp was a tubed one. Lovely sounding setup.

My argument is that I as an audiophile(??), I have no affilation or pet feeling towards class d- to look at it misry eyes and say beta tu bada hogaya. I care two hoots if it has come a long way or one day it will nearly match the class ab sound or whatever..i have no stake in making it and wind energy and solar panels and electric vehicles successful. If it is the thing one day that will be the only thing and I will buy it then.

 

[square_wave]

Ps: I can certainly imagine me getting a class d amp if I had a second or a third compact setup or something. In that case it would be something like wiim amp. Cheap cheap.

There are people who run reference grade systems on really well reviewed and reputed class D amps. They are not cheap by any standards. It is also a matter of taste.

 

[square_wave]

My argument is that I as an audiophile(??), I have no affilation or pet feeling towards class d- to look at it misry eyes and say beta tu bada hogaya. I care two hoots if it has come a long way or one day it will nearly match the class ab sound or whatever..i have no stake in making it and wind energy and solar panels and electric vehicles successful. If it is the thing one day that will be the only thing and I will buy it then.

From industry sources, this is what I hear.

If you want good sound from class A or AB, there are tried and tested outstanding designs already out there. One only has to bring exemplary production standards and assemble them. They will sound outstanding.

But class D is a different animal. It is easy to make a cheap class d amp that will sound better than an entry level class A/B amplifier. However as you go up the cost ladder in the market at mid-high segments, you have to compete with better class A or A/B designs. That is where ingenuity comes into play. That is where the men are easily separated from the children by discerning ears. Even in this space, some class D designs compete very well to the point that it is only a matter of preference.

Once you reach the top ( high end ) levels, Class A/AB typically rule.

When I was picking up a new amp, I tried one mid fi (~3L) class D amp at my house, while playing things like string quartets and small jazz ensembles, if you noticed the highs, the amp was doing something to smoothen it up. Audible even when a bow hits the string. Some of the dynamics is muted. My older class A tube amp used to just release it all with a touch of grace. As if it is saying that it has nothing to be scared of! The Leema amp which I eventually bought releases the top end really well but does it like how a good class A/B should. With some level of constraint to contain any harshness but you hear it all ..body, shimmer..attack, sustain and decay. Most budget and mid level class D does something to the sound that I dont necessarily like. This anomaly is usually at the top portions of the freq spectrum incl the upper midrange. They control it like a strict and stern school teacher. I think there is some inherent issue at those freq levels for class D so they are doing something to fix it. The rest of the spectrum is exemplary. I guess the cost and engineering gets really high if you want to fix those issues while leveraging all the benefits of class D on the lower regions of the spectrum.

Someone should listen to this class D design by Atmasphere. Knowing those fellas, I am sure they wont make something that will not sound very good.

Atma-Sphere Class D - preliminary

Monoblock class D amplifer hand made in the USA.

www.atma-sphere.com

 

[reignofchaos]

Class D is limited in bandwidth due to limited switching frequencies - even the state of the art ganfet amps like AGD have only around 18 bits of usable dynamic range. This lack of bandwidth will be most apparent in higher frequencies where dithering will be used to cover up deficiencies. I heard this in the NAD I have in the secondary system too.

 

[bhooshaniyer]

From industry sources, this is what I hear.

If you want good sound from class A or AB, there are tried and tested outstanding designs already out there. One only has to bring exemplary production standards and assemble them. They will sound outstanding.

But class D is a different animal. It is easy to make a cheap class d amp that will sound better than an entry level class A/B amplifier. However as you go up the cost ladder in the market at mid-high segments, you have to compete with better class A or A/B designs. That is where ingenuity comes into play. That is where the men are easily separated from the children by discerning ears. Even in this space, some class D designs compete very well to the point that it is only a matter of preference.

Once you reach the top ( high end ) levels, Class A/AB typically rule.

When I was picking up a new amp, I tried one mid fi (~3L) class D amp at my house, while playing things like string quartets and small jazz ensembles, if you noticed the highs, the amp was doing something to smoothen it up. Audible even when a bow hits the string. Some of the dynamics is muted. My older class A tube amp used to just release it all with a touch of grace. As if it is saying that it has nothing to be scared of! The Leema amp which I eventually bought releases the top end really well but does it like how a good class A/B should. With some level of constraint to contain any harshness but you hear it all ..body, shimmer..attack, sustain and decay. Most budget and mid level class D does something to the sound that I dont necessarily like. This anomaly is usually at the top portions of the freq spectrum incl the upper midrange. They control it like a strict and stern school teacher. I think there is some inherent issue at those freq levels for class D so they are doing something to fix it. The rest of the spectrum is exemplary. I guess the cost and engineering gets really high if you want to fix those issues while leveraging all the benefits of class D on the lower regions of the spectrum.

Someone should listen to this class D design by Atmasphere. Knowing those fellas, I am sure they wont make something that will not sound very good.

Atma-Sphere Class D - preliminary

Monoblock class D amplifer hand made in the USA.

www.atma-sphere.com

See the thing is i have no interest in investigating where class d is and constantly track it on its incremental improvements of class d in itself. That's for makers and promoters of those amps to worry about- not me. I am interested in the best possible sound for my current system and for my next upgrade.

I mean why does a guy -- who worries about say earthing, power quality, power conditioning, about first press of the records, the best edition of cds, best cd player tech, best dac for his preference, curated DSD and wav collection running on a nas with roon core utilising the best in class streaming technology with sfp, external clocks, turntable with sut and high end phono, connected using 100% pure copper cables selected for perfect capacitance etc -- need a class d? He needs a class d like he needs a kick up his nuts.