POWER GAMES:Servo Stabilizer,CVT or Online UPS?

[ajay124]

Chief how do you manage to take out so much time to listen to music?

A little over a year ago,against the advise of all my well wisher's,friend's and relatives,I wound up my fairly lucrative business,to spend the rest of my 'healthy' years rediscovering all the pleasure's of my youth.Music,reading,drinking,travelling,day dreaming.
I deliberarely cut myself off from all the people and activities of my 15 year's in the catering business.Less friends and obviously less money.But no real regrets.The most important thing in life is to run INWARDS towards yourself and your immediate family and friends.My business was making me run OUTWARDS,chasing ephemeral material possession's and kick's.
I have finally got used to a relaxed,stress free,work free life.People say how can you live without work?I say that you can fill your day with music,books,and doing all those small things which modern city life is obliterarting from the world.
I normally get up by 6 and as the pot of Darjeeling tea is brewing,I power on the Bryston's,let them warm up for a few minutes and then it's usually a couple of hour's of Indian classical in the morning.I finish of odd jobs before lunch.And then a solid 4 hour session of music.Go for a walk or drive in the evening.And then a long 5-6 session stretching till close to midnight.
But truly giving clean,unimpeded power through a direct,external line has transformed the system.The sound today without the belkin surge protector is nothing short of magical.I intend to power this external line with a single dedicated phase which has nothing else connected to it.And when I have the cash,get rid of the Walwart power cables and get something good.

 

[anm]

we envy you!

 

[anm]

Also, it makes me wonder if an amp can be called top quality if it is that sensitive to input power!
Are you sure it is not a placebo effect? Maybe ask someone to randomly add/ remove the power strip in the night and see if you are able to figure out.

 

[avidyarthy]

One of my very close friend who was into a fantastic job with an Engineering MNC has done quite the same as yourself.

Relocated to Dehradun from Pune, and now is totally into 'birding' and butterflies ....

Yearn for your life style, but, don't think would be possible in this 'janam' ... bloody too many responsibilities :sad:

 

[prem]

Way to go Ajay 124. Before you get into something expensive, try the simple Volex 17604 power cords. They cost about $10. They are really nice. If you are planning to use the US connectors as is on the Volex, change your wall outlets to Hubbell 5362 all brass.

 

[arj]

A little over a year ago,against the advise of all my well wisher's,friend's and relatives,I wound up my fairly lucrative business,to spend the rest of my 'healthy' years rediscovering all the pleasure's of my youth.Music,reading,drinking,travelling,day dreaming.
I deliberarely cut myself off from all the people and activities of my 15 year's in the catering business.Less friends and obviously less money.But no real regrets.The most important thing in life is to run INWARDS towards yourself and your immediate family and friends.My business was making me run OUTWARDS,chasing ephemeral material possession's and kick's.
I have finally got used to a relaxed,stress free,work free life.People say how can you live without work?I say that you can fill your day with music,books,and doing all those small things which modern city life is obliterarting from the world.
I normally get up by 6 and as the pot of Darjeeling tea is brewing,I power on the Bryston's,let them warm up for a few minutes and then it's usually a couple of hour's of Indian classical in the morning.I finish of odd jobs before lunch.And then a solid 4 hour session of music.Go for a walk or drive in the evening.And then a long 5-6 session stretching till close to midnight.
But truly giving clean,unimpeded power through a direct,external line has transformed the system.The sound today without the belkin surge protector is nothing short of magical.I intend to power this external line with a single dedicated phase which has nothing else connected to it.And when I have the cash,get rid of the Walwart power cables and get something good.

Have nothing but Respect and Envy (in that order) for you sir :clapping:

regarding you proposed Upgrade path of a direct and dedicated line..that is far better than any other regenerator/et al. Shanti , who posts in this forum has done just that..only that in his perfectionist way, he has the entire line metal jacketed as well ! he does not even need the purepower regenerator now !

 

[prem]

I am not sure metal jacket is a great idea. It could suck the life.

 

[ajay124]

Also, it makes me wonder if an amp can be called top quality if it is that sensitive to input power!
Are you sure it is not a placebo effect? Maybe ask someone to randomly add/ remove the power strip in the night and see if you are able to figure out.

I think every amp and cdp of any quality would benefit from clean power and suffer from dirty power.My house was built 20 years ago.There was no attention paid to the electrical cabling.Cables used seem to be cheap,non branded stuff,fitted by an ignorant contractor,in a hurry to get the job done.Big house,many power sucking implements,running on only two phases.The third phase has been dead for years.Tomorrow hopefully,work will begin to make the third phase functional.
Even the work I have got done in recent years was not from an audiophile point of view.In fact until I started this thread I was pretty much ignorant about the power stuff,but now I can at least make sense of what is required,and what works in my system.
The direct power line,not routed through the inverter and the old underground cables,made a big difference.Removing the belkin power strip made a dramatic difference.No way is it an 'imaginary' or a placebo effect.In the past,when I was struggling to put together a system,I have been the victim of placebo effects,especially in the Nad/Dynaudio phase,but now I know my speaker's,cdp,amp's,cables well enough to realise that something has changed for the better or worse.
Removing all impediments from the power chain,pulling the speaker's forward almost 5 feet from the backwall and adding the 4B SST have transformed the system.I may be saying goodbye to the Arcam CDP soon,but if I do,then that would in all probability be my last upgrade,as long as the cdp,amps and speakers remain trouble free.

 

[arj]

Also, it makes me wonder if an amp can be called top quality if it is that sensitive to input power!
Are you sure it is not a placebo effect? Maybe ask someone to randomly add/ remove the power strip in the night and see if you are able to figure out.

everything responds to power..the source the most, and there is nothing placebo about it. if you really look at it power is the blood for amps/preamps. it is the input power which gets translated to output power, modulated by the signal from the source...so better the quality of the power, better the output. the only way to dissociate from input power is to make battery based components with the battery in an online charging mode.
Red wine audio sells customized battery based power which can be used to feed components...if you know the power requirements

 

[shershah]

Red wine audio sells customized battery based power which can be used to feed components...if you know the power requirements

batteries tend to supply less power (amps/voltage) at the 3/4 fag end of their recharge cycle.

if the audiophile wants to run his entire rig with DC power, i reckon he has to be a prince amongst paupers

a cheaper option might be

Diesel Generator Sets - Trolly Mounted Generator Sets, Re-forward Generator Sets, Air Cooled Diesel Generator Sets and Water Cooled Diesel Generator Sets Supplier & Manufacturer

if that is out of budget, then just run your rig off an unprotected 15 amp electricity board outlet.
if your rig runs the colors off an INR 10 lakhs cheque, then a dedicated power generator (not regenerator) is in order.

and the audiophile will surely score brownie points when he points to the snake-like aluminum cables that the diesel gen-set comes with

 

[hifiashok]

only differential power is drawn from the batteries, unless there is no power. and the situation we are wary of is not when on batteries only but when on power.

battery gives differential power to the AC convertor when needed.

I'd be obliged if you guys explain this differential thing a little more elaborately.

What I understand Thad is saying (which I also think is true) is that in an online UPS, pure sinewave power of 60 cycles and constant 230 volts sans all EMI second harmonics etc is regenerated and outputted by drawing current solely from the battery but you seem to indicate that 'differential power' is drawn from batteries to cater to low / fluctuating voltage being received from mains.

Is that so? How does this work?

The selling point of an online UPS is zero-time switchover. There is no switchover, as the batteries are permanently connected to the output.

I had always imagined a simple flow:

AC -->converter-->Battery-->converter-->AC

I had imagined that isolation was a by-product advantage of this.

Taking a look at the circuit diagram on p2 of this link (from earlier in the thread) indicates that things are not so simple.

A site I was browsing from another link on this (I think) thread makes the point that there are no absolute definitions. I guess there may be other implementations.

i will re-iterate. in the case of an on-line UPS, only differential power is drawn from the batteries in case of a shortfall at the input. this is one of the two critical reasons why the input AC is converted to DC and then again converted to AC, DC being uni-directional. consequently, on the switch-over time delay, there is practically none since, immediately against the power at the input being lost, the differential to zero AC i/p would be drawn from the batteries.

the suggestion that there is a commercially viable option in UPSs where 100% o/p power is generated from the batteries and the i/p power is only used to charge the batteries is impractical. typical batteries (LA and/or SMF) have a max./realistic charge cycle of 1100. consequently, if 100% power was needed to be provided only from the batteries, imagine the practical life of the batteries!! however, having stated this, it is not as if this is not a possibility and this implementation MAY be needed in some cases (like the indian railways where (almost) everything runs on DC), but definitely not in the case of regular AC equipment.

no isolation tfr at the o/p of the o/l UPS, no isolation, period.

btw, there is a suggestion, tho' also impractical. if one is so paranoid of the input surge, etc., and one after all STILL wants to go the o/l UPS way, one may buy the o/l UPS rated with say 2 hr. battery backup (assuming this is the longest possible time for a listening session to extend; if not, an even larger battery bank for the backup!) and then, just prior to start of the session, turn off the mains i/p to the UPS. Lo, 100% o/p from the batteries!!! however, you would still need to grapple with the harmonics introduced into the o/p line by the IGBT (rectifier/hi-freq switcher to convert DC to AC) that would pollute the audio, the original reason why i suggested a CVT over a UPS.

in the case of an online UPS, batteries are connected but floating across the bus. main utility power is converted to DC and the DC in turn is inverted with precise frequency and controlled voltage through Pulse Width Modulation technology. when the main utility power is within the high and low correction window, the batteries are under charge. in the event of a main utility power failure, brown out, etc., batteries start to discharge, feeding power to the inverter. in common language, the flow of DC is from the high point to low. when the power is there the high point is power. when power fails the high point is batteries.

 

[hifiashok]

I'd be obliged if you guys explain this differential thing a little more elaborately.

it is AC->Convert to DC->convert to AC->AC

battery is connected in paralel to the dc and back to AC regeneration

battery gets charged when not used a from the DC convertor
And
battery gives differential power to the AC convertor when needed.

Only time battery is used fully is when there is no input power

some info here http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/ext/ups/typesOnLine-c.html

there are contradictions on this link; 'Aside from the cost, a disadvantage of the online UPS is its inefficiency. All the power going to the loads is converted from AC to DC and back to AC, which means much of the power is dissipated as heat. Furthermore, this is happening all the time, not just during a power failure, and while running equipment that draws a lot of power'. if the batteries are being used to generate the o/p AC, then where does the AC -> DC -> AC come in?

the rectifier with Active Power Factor Control technology is termed here as delta power converter. this paper is specific to one company. the inverter technology is same in delta conversion and double conversion. delta conversion is also double conversion.

 

[borg]

the rectifier with Active Power Factor Control technology is termed here as delta power converter. this paper is specific to one company. the inverter technology is same in delta conversion and double conversion. delta conversion is also double conversion.

Delta conversion is not quite the same as the normal double conversion technology,
in double conversion the ac is rectified to dc and then converted back to ac, the rectifier need to be of full rated power as it need to supply the full powered load, charge batteries and cater for the losses.

This is comparatively less efficient to the delta conversion in which there is no complete conversion(hence superior efficiency) of ac to dc and back, instead the delta inverter controls the amount of power being taken from input to augment the fully rated main inverter which drives the load, how exactly it functions is really will be beyond the scope of this discussion, i dont think this tech is available in low power like we discuss here

 

[anm]

I agree everything responds badly to really bad power. But removing power strip making such a profound difference is something surprising.

everything responds to power..the source the most, and there is nothing placebo about it. if you really look at it power is the blood for amps/preamps. it is the input power which gets translated to output power, modulated by the signal from the source...so better the quality of the power, better the output. the only way to dissociate from input power is to make battery based components with the battery in an online charging mode.
Red wine audio sells customized battery based power which can be used to feed components...if you know the power requirements

 

[arj]

i know ! but apparently, electrical contact points are even more important that the wire connecting him..hence plugs/sockets make a much more bigger difference

 

[ajay124]

I agree everything responds badly to really bad power. But removing power strip making such a profound difference is something surprising.

If you happen to be in Chandigarh,please come over,and we can do a with/without the power strip audition.We can progressively move backwards and put in all the noise which was present in my system earlier,by adding the power strip,the inverter,the rotten internal cabling to the chain.Alternately if your system is connected to an old internal cabling,get a dedicated line installed on a phase which has few or preferrably no power implements connected.Use a 4 mm Havell or Finolex cable or better a Lapp cable.The first two are roughly 2K a 90 meter( i think ) roll.The Lapp would be close to 4K and only a specialized store supplying cables to industries would have it.My hard to get electrician landed up on a Sunday when only Havell was available.Otherwise I would have preferred the Lapp.These small spendings ,along with better IC's and cable's would give better results in most cases than
upgrading the hardware at considerable cost.In fact if the cable's are bad,I think it is a waste of money to upgrade the hardware as it will only be performing at sub optimum levels.I give the same importance to my power supply tweaks and the Transparent Audio IC's and speaker cable's as I do to the Bryston's.I may go higher up the Transparent Audio ladder,but I would not change them for another brand.



The difference is clearly audible.I have been living with various degrees of satisfaction with my system.After cleaning up the power supply,I truly feel I have a HIFi system and not a wannabe HIFI system

 

[pratimbayal]

I had the same experience with the power supply as Ajay has done recently.

Currently running the system with dedicated power supply with 6 mm finolex cable. Separate plug point ( in a huge board) for cdp, amp,tape ...... Fine improvement in the performence. Currently I have anchor sockets which will be changed to crabtree.

I just feel for a surge protector for the CDP only, not for the amp. Am thinking OBO as Ajay suggested . That will be sufficient, cheaper ,and pure music only

Pratim

 

[anm]

thanks for all your responses. I am finally planning to shift back to my house in Fdbd, and therefore asking all these silly questions. In case I need to do some changes to the wiring (it is considerably new, just 4 yrs old and internal wiring is done with finolex wire IIRC. But since it was done by a builder, I would have doubts).
I may upgrade my speakers/ amp soon, but only after I settle there.

 

[ajay124]

Yesterday I managed to locate and bought a surge protection device ( spd) in Chandigarh.It is a single line spd made by ABB.Model NVR 1N 15 275 s P TS.There are dozens of models for various requirements.With help from the dealer and distributor,I established that this particular model may suit my requirements.It provides a maximum surge protection of 15 kA.Price paid 1.8 K.The dealer was very helpful,but he told me that this was the first time they were selling an spd to an audiophile
Primarily it is used by industries,telecom,banks etc.He told me clearly that he had no knowledge whether it would even serve any purpose in my set up,so essentially it was my personal decision to give it a try.I have also got the third phase functional from the pole.Waiting for the electrician,to come and install the spd and connect one phase exclusively to the music system and nothing else.I hope it works as expected and does not impact the dynamics.
More inputs from a Bryston forum.
Running a Bryston 4B SST and a JL Audio F113 from a dedicated 20A breaker?

 

[ajay124]

After discussions with the electrician/dealers and further trawling of Bryston and other forums,I decided NOT to install the surge protector.Because the pros were not very clear but the cons in terms of reduced dynamics and transient response were a distinct possibility.If HIFI means the pursuit of faithful reproduction then power conditioning is a no no
Providing clean,dedicated power from the pole---distribution box---power sockets---hifi system is ESSENTIAL for a hi fidelity sound and is also the first and very important level of protection.By removing all other loads from one phase,and running an external dedicating 4 mm cable (should have opted for a 6mm LAPP Cable:sad to power sockets behind my audio rack I feel I have acheived a considerable amount of improvement in dynamics and SQ and also a reasonable amount of protection.My power amp at times used to behave in an eccentric unpredictable manner during start up.I blamed Bryston for that.No more.With clean power and a 15 amp socket and plug the start up is smooth and simple.I am planning to get the 3 phase 24 mm cable running from the pole into my house replaced by the electricity department,if neccessary at my cost.There is a bare contact point on the pole which causes trouble every monsoon and in the past I believe was responsible for destroying my Grundig TV.I intend to get the entire cable from the pole replaced and connect it to a fuse or mcb box placed in my front lawn.I think that would take care of the monsoon blues.I intend to spend the money saved by not opting for power conditioning on a 2 meter power cable,cut into three pieces for cdp/pre/power and three pairs of male/female connectors from Oyaide,Furutech or Wattgate.
An interesting article.From HiFi to High End Audio:What's wrong?
Pt.1- FROM HiFi to HIGH-END: What's Wrong?