POWER GAMES:Servo Stabilizer,CVT or Online UPS?

[ajay124]

Does anybody have information of Sukam Online UPS?
>>> SU-KAM <<< Leading manufacturer of Power Products in India, Only Power back up company manufacturing world class UPS, Home UPS, Online UPS, Inverters, Batteries, Battery Chargers, Solar Products
I have been suggested several budget brands of Online UPS's by an electrician I have employed in the past and have a lot of confidence in.Currently his main line of work is installing various kinds of power conditioners and power back ups for several companies.Since he is regularly in touch with various brands and seems to be 'specialising' in such installations,he turned out to be quite well informed on power conditioning.I have called him over tomorrow for a site check and discussions.Maybe something comes out of it.Especially as I have got confirmation from another source that a 2 kva Stab or UPS would be able to provide sufficient power to the amp and would not impact the dynamics.
For my particular needs I have categorically been recommended an online UPS as the latest and best technology.
I am willing to learn and something may come out of this.
I am confident of the electricians abilities to do a clean efficient job of removing older power cables and putting in a direct dedicated line from a UPS placed near the distribution box and leading up to 3 independent sockets behind the audio rack.

 

[square_wave]

OBO surge arrester (manufactured in Germany) 3.5K

Interesting product. Which model were you looking at ?

 

[rana_kirti]

is that a MCB or is it to be installed along side a MCB ?

 

[GeorgeO]

Ajay

I use their 1400VA inverter for home use-it is an offline one though. I have two pretty large batteries for back up and by and large have found it good, and can recommend it for similar duty.. I dont know about the online unit.

 

[ajay124]

@squarewave
I was suggested the OBO Betterman surge arrester v 20-c by Mr.Manjunath of Vertex.Price quoted was 3.5 K.If you want more information you can have a word with him at 09886081610.
@ranakirti
It looks like a mcb,yes.It is supposed to be easy to install,just one wire to be connected and the unit is fixed on a clamp which should be also provided.It can be fixed externally at any point or even internally inside the Servo Stab.The normal surge protectors have a MOV,which is essentially destroyed and needs to be replaced after one or a few surges.The OBO is supposed to have a much longer life and better protection.Many manufacturer's who claim to provide surge protection are actually providing an HRC fuse,in most cases,the humble 5 buck glass one.Therefore when one buys a 'surge protector' one should check what is actually being provided.Most elementary surge protectors being used by people may be ineffective devices providing only psychological satisfaction but very little protection!
http://www.obo-bettermann.com/downloads/en/prospekte/photovoltaik_en.pdf
@GeorgeO
For the past one year my system has been powered through a 5 amp socket connected to a Sukam inverter.I was quite happy with the set up until I sourced the power from a direct 15 amp wall socket and found a substantial increase in sound quality.The earlier reduced SQ may have been caused by either of the two factors:
The offline inverter,both in the bypass and battery mode
Cheap,thin,non branded cables connecting the inverter to the main distribution board.
The guy who set up my off line inverter has suggested an online UPS with a dedicated line to the music system as the best option.What needs to be resolved is the selection of the brand as well as the power rating.
Power:
I would be happy with a 2.5 kva input and 2 kva output.
Back up :
10-15 minute.Higher back up means more batteries and expenditure.I just need time to switch off the system,and do not intend to play music on batteries.

Brand:
APC -2 kva input and 1.4 kva output,internal battery,crest factor 3:1,best price 30K.
Emerson Leibert - 2 kva input and 1.6 kva output,internal battery,crest factor 3:1,best price 28K
Mikrotek 2 kva input 1.6 kva output,best price 21K external battery.Unsatisfactory response and BAD interaction by distributor,have therefore ruled out Mikrotek inspite of attractive price and good word of mouth for the product.
Other brands I will be investigating Sukam,Venus .....
Most people in the trade whom I spoke to,dismissed Servo stabs and CVT's as power conditioning options.They categorically favoured online UPS as the best technology.None of them were audiophiles and they may be wrong ,but I am just reporting their opinion.Since several people involved in manufacturing or selling Servo's or CVT's also admitted or themselves suggested an online UPS as a better option,I think their opinion should be considered.

 

[borg]

.None of them were audiophiles and they may be wrong , [/I]

Earlier you said the sound quality gone "bad" when it went to battery mode in your sine wave inverter and "immediatly improved" when the mains cameback , so even though an online ups is the best form of power protection available it may not be right for you(and so will be any other form of conditioning devices mentioned here),
so why dont you just install the surge arrester you have mentioned

 

[ajay124]

Earlier you said the sound quality gone "bad" when it went to battery mode in your sine wave inverter and "immediatly improved" when the mains cameback , so even though an online ups is the best form of power protection available it may not be right for you(and so will be any other form of conditioning devices mentioned here),
so why dont you just install the surge arrester you have mentioned

Yes,the surge arrester is a good option.It takes care of the surges,which for me is the main issue.But I want to explore the online option as my chief grouse with an online ups was the cooling fan noise,but now I am looking at placing it close to the mains so that issue has been resolved.Currently there is no voltage fluctuation,but in the summers when the ac's come on,the voltage does fluctuate.If an online ups can provide complete protection,voltage regulation and also improve SQ further,then I may buy one of the budget brands.Budget,because everybody seems to be importing the internal board from China,putting an external casing and then pricing according to the brand image.A local manufacturer has also suggested a batteryless online ups,to bring cost down,by removing the back up feature, in which I don't have much interest.I would appreciate your technical guidance on these issues.I am essentially playing it by the ear as I have no technical knowledge of electronics.
As I have written in the last post I can't be sure whether the sound went 'bad' because of the offline inverter or poor cabling.

 

[borg]

everybody seems to be importing the internal board from China,putting an external casing and then pricing according to the brand image..

This is not true in case of top brands,they have good R&D setup to design these to meet international standards and their own internal performance standards and with proper mfg process and QA/QC checkpoints in place it doesnot matter where it is manufactured ,BUT these are NOT designed with audio applications in mind,since you are a serius audiophile (which i am not) i am not sure you will be satisfied especially after seeing your post about the SQ and inverter

if it was the cable why did the sound improved immediatly once mains cameback

i never worked on batteryless ups designs,
battery provides the alternate energy source to keep things stable, unless it is designed as a proper ac-ac regenerator without the need of battery i am not sure how good that is

 

[ajay124]

@borg
"if it was the cable why did the sound improve immediatly once mains cameback"
You have a point there.In that case the only reason that comes to mind for the dull,lifeless sound is that the 1.4 kva Sukam offline inverter does not generate enough output on battery mode to feed the Bryston Power amp.

 

[ajay124]

@borg
The surge protector being provided inside a servo stab or a power strip seems to be an MOV.A metal oxide varistor.Essentially a sacrificial lamb that is slaughtered when a power surge happens.Whether it provides 'protection' before it is slaughtered would depend on it's spec's and the intensity of the surge.With every surge it's power wanes and it probably becomes ineffective after one or more surges.
How much protection do these MOV's provide? What are the tech specs that should be studied before buying one?Apart from the MOV's built into the power strips,are there any MOV's or other kinds of surge protector's for external use which would be available in a well stocked electrical shop.Can you suggest any Indian brand?
External Surge Protector would be better because at least one would get to know that the MOV has 'blown' and needs to be replaced.A power strip may look ok from the outside but the MOV inside may have given up the ghost long ago.

 

[borg]

A good surge suppressor will have more than just a single MOV,
regarding it's performance if it complies to ieee stds it needs reduce 6000v test surges to harmless levels, it will have multiple mov banks(meaning increased energy dissipation capacity), common mode and differential mode chokes and x and y type caps to filter out C.M and diff noise, Ideally i would like to have a fast acting relay thrown in to cutoff the continous highvoltages to protect the components.

similar protection devices are TVSS ,GD tube etc

important specs are like the energy dissipation capacity rated in joules and the clamping voltage. No particular brand comes to mind now, i need to google it

 

[borg]

you already posted one brand, it complies to vde standards

some found on googling, check these out, tripplite has a section for av surge suppressor but not sure available in india, although i saw a french outlet version 220-250v compatible
http://www.belkin.com/in/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=481734
Audio/Video Surge Suppressors

 

[ajay124]

Sukam online ups prices are on par with APC and Emerson,but they are providing the additional feature of galvanic isolation in their intelliQ models,which are supposed to output 'pure' sine wave.The intelliQ models are with a transformer.2kva is 28 K and 3 kva is 37K.Transformerless models are 2K more for each model and do not provide galvanic isolation.

@borg
Can you explain difference between with and without transformer technology in an online ups.

>>> SU-KAM <<< Leading manufacturer of Power Products in India, Only Power back up company manufacturing world class UPS, Home UPS, Online UPS, Inverters, Batteries, Battery Chargers, Solar Products

http://www.su-kam.com/download/products/Online UPS/TS/onlineUPS_1p-1p.pdf

 

[anm]

borg, I have that 8 pin strip from belkin with me through which my TV is connected.

General question that may help lot of people. It has surge protection for lan (I am not using that as all devices in this room are on wireless), telephone (not using as no telephone line coming in here). However, I do use a tatasky line. Though it is quite improbable for tatasky line to have a surge coming in, as it is a short run from dish to stb, I would still like to pass it through my surge protector. However, tatasky cable doesn't seem compatible with the sockets on this. Any guidance on how to achieve this? I am sure support at tatasky would be unable to answer this.

Sorry ajay for a little OT.

you already posted one brand, it complies to vde standards

some found on googling, check these out, tripplite has a section for av surge suppressor but not sure available in india, although i saw a french outlet version 220-250v compatible
Belkin : Gold Series 8-Socket Surge Protector
Audio/Video Surge Suppressors

 

[borg]

@borg
Can you explain difference between with and without transformer technology in an online ups.

[[/url]

For true galvanic isolation an online ups regardless if it is transformer based or transformerless it must have isolation transformer, why because even it has a transformer during bypass mode(a tru online ups will have a mains supply static bypass feature) the isolation will be lost

regarding transformer and transformerless there are different topologies in use i will give some general example

a transformer based online ups will have a rectifier(ac-dc) cum charger txmr which stepdown the mains input and driving the rectifier which is connected in parallel with the battery and also will have an inverter(dc-ac) transformer which steps up the inverter voltage to the required output, this tfr will isolate the output from the dc circuit as well, this is an age old technology
switching is done relative low frequencies because of the iron core transformer present

Transformerless ups's directly rectify the mains and is parallel with a dc-dc converter which steps up the low battery voltage and this highvoltage dc bus drives the inverter , high frequency pwn switching is possible because no iron core tfr present. There is no magnetic isolation from the dc circuit unlike the tfr based ones

I diddnt see any mention of compliance to standards(iec etc) on sukam site.Unfortunately to sell in our country there is no such requirement

 

[borg]

line. Though it is quite improbable for tatasky line to have a surge coming in, as it is a short run from dish to stb, ISorry ajay for a little OT.

Tatasky cable will be vulnerable to ligthning spikes,i think someone in this forum made some diy protection device using MOV's . unlike the powerline or telephone line. Tatasky line carries very high frequency and low level signals so i would worry about the interference in the circuit due to the capacitance of any shunt device like mov, This will need some research as we need to know the parameters to properly select a protection device and its ratings(MOV,TVSS or gdtube)

 

[borg]

the obo that ajay124 suggested has a product for this application(satellite dish)
OBO BETTERMANN - Surge protection for TV receiver units

http://www.obo-bettermann.com/downloads/en/prospekte/uess_tv_en.pdf

 

[ajay124]

FINAL CHOICES
1. OBO Surge Protector only.Cost 3.5K.Would be effective as long as it's Zinc Oxide Varistor is fine.When that goes the full unit would need to be replaced.

2. APC or Emerson online UPS connected by a dedicated line to individual power sockets near the music system.Cost of 2 kva 30K.Cost of 3kva 37K(App.)Plus 1K at least for electrician and dedicated cable.2kva would output 1.4 kva and 3 kva would output 2.1 kva.I would prefer the 3 kva,therefore Cost 38K.If an Isolation Transformer is added for full galvanic Isolation then add 7K more to the cost :sad:

3. OBO Surge Protector+2 kva Servo Stab + 2 kva Isolation Transformer.Cost 21K.For 3 kva Servo+3 kva Isolation with the OBO,Cost 24.5K.Would provide protection from surges,regulated voltage and isolation and 2 kva or 3 kva output.

Output power is the most important factor for me because if the dynamics are ruined because of insufficient power,then the whole power conditioning exercise becomes worthless.

 

[ajay124]

@borg,arj,hifiashok,prem
I have been told that an isolation transformer also provides,a certain amount of surge protection.Is that a fact?
Do you think that buying only an isolation transformer makes sense?
If I do go ahead,should I buy a 2-3 kva for all three components,or should I get the lowest powered one available and connect only the cdp and pre?
Should a power amp be 'isolated' from the cdp and pre by using a separate power socket?
Would a small,low powered isolation transformer or a cvt be more effective for a cdp+ pre amp having a combined power consumption of 100-150 W?
A 2+ kva output from a Apc or Emerson online ups would cost close to 40K and I don't want to spend that kind of money.It would be cheaper to at least protect the cdp and pre with a low powered transformer or cvt and for the moment leave the power amp connected to the Belkin power strip that I am currently using.

 

[prem]

Yes an isolation transformer will give you some amount of surge protection. I would recommend this route. Ideally first buy a 500VA isolation transformer for the cd player. See how you like it and then decide whether you want one for an amp. Use a separate isolation transformer for the cd player and a separate one for the pre and the power amp. Do not use one for the cd player and the pre. I use a CVT primarily because Jacobs amp requires a reasonably constant voltage.