POWER GAMES:Servo Stabilizer,CVT or Online UPS?

[arj]

Ajay, from experience, you will not be able to arrive at the best soluton very soon.
hence my recommendation..as I have been mentioning before , to take it as 2 separate things ie 1. Protection 2. Good power.

I assume you have 1 under control.

for 2, from what i have understood, the source and the Pre give you the best benefit out of good power .

Also the source has tendency to pollute the rest of the chain the most and also gets impacted by power quality the most.

So Even If you do get an isolation tfr, just give it to the source/pre and let the power be as it is today. My guess is you will already have seen a great benefit.

you can play around with the Pre in terms of after and before the transformer as to what gives you better benefits.

I have been trying to figure this out for a very long time myself..my approach due to lack of too much tech knowledge has been purely from an audio point of view and have arrived at the above conclusion as regenerated/pure sine wave as the best solution for the Source ( its load does not vary much hence no issues of impact of Dynamics here). something I could corroborate on my system as well.

( i believe The pre has the maximum gain ,even more than a power amp,hence the quality of power being more important )

In my setup , my amp shows the minimum impact to power cables hence it is the last component i would worry from this point of view.

the best thing you can do to your setup is give it a separate line from the main transformer and dedicate it to audio...

 

[ajay124]

@Manav
Perhaps we can carry on our interrupted teletalk on the thread.
You seem to be in favour of NO power conditioning.Perhaps with power hungry amps like Krell/Bryston,power conditioning may not work well.
But Sidvee seems to be happy powering an Odyssey Stratos through a 2kva Vertex Servo Stab.
@arj
I'd gone out for a drive/lunch (SUNSHINE!FINALLY).
Your latest post is on the lines of what I was thinking on the way back home.
Basically to focus on actual needs rather than an 'all in one solution'.
Back up-Not very important.
Protection-Get some basic surge protectors installed in the distribution box and leave the rest to fate.
Regulated Voltage-Perhaps not needed.99% of the time it is quite stable and satisfactory in Chandigarh.
During the monsoons there are fluctuations when it has been raining continuously,so unplug and avoid playing the system in those days.
Isolation-Connect the cdp and pre amp through an isolation transformer.Connect the power amp directly into a 15 amp wall socket.
I have noticed that the quality of sound improves as the evening shadows lengthen.
Does that have something to do with internal 'noise' in the power supply?Or is it merely because ambient noise gradually reduces in the evening?
Isolating the source and pre may or may not do any good.But at least there is no risk of compromised dynamics.

 

[malvai]

@Manav
Perhaps we can carry on our interrupted teletalk on the thread.
You seem to be in favour of NO power conditioning.Perhaps with power hungry amps like Krell/Bryston,power conditioning may not work well.
But Sidvee seems to be happy powering an Odyssey Stratos through a 2kva Vertex Servo Stab.
@arj
I'd gone out for a drive/lunch (SUNSHINE!FINALLY).
Your latest post is on the lines of what I was thinking on the way back home.
Basically to focus on actual needs rather than an 'all in one solution'.
Back up-Not very important.
Protection-Get some basic surge protectors installed in the distribution box and leave the rest to fate.
Regulated Voltage-Perhaps not needed.99% of the time it is quite stable and satisfactory in Chandigarh.
During the monsoons there are fluctuations when it has been raining continuously,so unplug and avoid playing the system in those days.
Isolation-Connect the cdp and pre amp through an isolation transformer.Connect the power amp directly into a 15 amp wall socket.
I have noticed that the quality of sound improves as the evening shadows lengthen.
Does that have something to do with internal 'noise' in the power supply?Or is it merely because ambient noise gradually reduces in the evening?
Isolating the source and pre may or may not do any good.But at least there is no risk of compromised dynamics.

NO! NO! NO!
I did not mean that.
What I really meant was, that every city has its own set of power problems...

Most of the US/European/Jap power conditioners address their own regions power probs perfectly - bit to us it means SH1T.

We need to figure out the eccentricities in power as per the city we live in.

For instance, in Mumbai, I get perfect voltage but i don;t get perfect cycles. I get a constant of about 49 Cycles instead of 50.

So i need something that could regenerate power as per that...

I haven't found something that can do that yet.

And as i am shifting home base to delhi i'd need to address the more local issue there, so i have left this thingee for later...

Power conditioning is an expensive propositon. hence, one needs to know the specifics. Then one needs to get the 'supposed' solution onto the chain for a demo.... id it works - IT WORKS. Else, the money is safer in the bank...

 

[arj]

For instance, in Mumbai, I get perfect voltage but i don;t get perfect cycles. I get a constant of about 49 Cycles instead of 50.

malvai, the only product i could find, at a reasonable cost, which does this was by monarchy. it give me 50 Hz (can play upto 400) , 230V (220-240 OR 110-135) and pure sinewave although limited to 100W.

In bangalore the power is Sinusoidal only past 10:30 pm ..voltage variation is not too much but its not dependable either

 

[arj]

I have noticed that the quality of sound improves as the evening shadows lengthen.
Does that have something to do with internal 'noise' in the power supply?Or is it merely because ambient noise gradually reduces in the evening?
.

Its Both :sad:
I would guess the former is more prevalent although the latter does play a role too.
(I am assuming by internal noise you mean the quality pf power. industrial power anyway dirties up the grid. But so do Tube lights, washing machines, microwaves, fan regulators, Mixies etc etc..)

But at the risk of repeating myself, power quality does Wonders to a CD players output

 

[ajay124]

Its Both :sad:
I would guess the former is more prevalent although the latter does play a role too.
(I am assuming by internal noise you mean the quality pf power. industrial power anyway dirties up the grid. But so do Tube lights, washing machines, microwaves, fan regulators, Mixies etc etc..)

But at the risk of repeating myself, power quality does Wonders to a CD players output

I think you are right about the cdp,pre benefitting from quality power.Does that translate into a 500 va Servo+Isolation Trf?

 

[ajay124]

@sidlal
In your post you had mentioned using a 5kva Servo to power your Krell which has a peak consumption of 3.4 kva.Have you done a comparison with which SOUNDS better,power through the Servo or through a direct connection to the wall socket.Strictly from the SQ point of view is a Servo a good option?
Do you think an adequately high powered Servo can provide the dynamic load for a big power amp?
Have you tried an Isolation Transformer in your system?

 

[arj]

I think you are right about the cdp,pre benefitting from quality power.Does that translate into a 500 va Servo+Isolation Trf?

HiAjayfrom the little i know
Servo: keeps the voltage at 230V..thats it. (although most equipment are built for 220-240V input) and from what i could see this is only protection as lowering of voltage has a negligible impact on sound, unlike frequency.
Isolation: keeps out the RFI/EMI and some amount of spikes also.it alsoacts as a Storage for energy

On the basis of the above I would go by an Isolation Trf if the above two are the only choices

Another important aspect for a cd player/transport is the delivery of power..it needs to get the dynamic current at that instant..so the power chord feeding the source need to be capable of High current delivery with no lag.

maybe an Isolation transformer + a filter may not be a bad idea.

But nothing to beat regenerated power..the monarchy i use gives me 100W of pure sinewave for" just" around 800USD landed which is enough for my transport, dac and even a pre if required !

I liked the Zephir from Audire , as they have incorporated Balanced power(from what I could read) but i always felt their products are priced that little bit higher than what would want to pay.

 

[prem]

Hi Ajay 124

Just read you are in the process of finalising an Esoteric player. In that case just stick to an Isolation transformer. Esoteric does not respond well to a regenerator nor does it like balanced power. I have tried a BPT balanced power conditioner as well as a PS Audio regenerator with it. Esoteric will need a very good power cord.

 

[arj]

prem has a very valid point. if your component has a very well designed Powersupply (many do conditioning/filtering) in that case as long as you give it unconstrained power, it should be enough .. eg My amp hardly reacts to power...

 

[ajay124]

Finally an audition!
Visited a local ups manufacturer who will be sending over a 1 kva unit tomorrow and a 2 kva unit after a couple of days.
If I am satisfied with the initial performance of the ups,I will try to keep it on 'loan' for a few days before I make up my mind
@prem
Does that mean you don't run the Esoteric on your CVT?

 

[prem]

Hi Ajay 124

I do not use an isolation transformer. Hence it runs through my CVT. Apart from controlling voltage, a CVT to a certain extent acts like an isolation transformer.

 

[ajay124]

A 'chance' audition right now provided fairly convincing proof about the effects of power conditioning on SQ.
I was listening to a Mahler symphony which I think is perfect for auditioning the dynamics of a music system.A power failure gave me the idea of listening carefully to what happened when the power shifted to my 1.4 kva Sukam inverter.I have heard music through the inverter for ages but never payed attention to what happened to the SQ when power shifted to the battery mode.10 minutes of listening convinced me that the sound had gone 'bad'.Everything seemed to have slowed down.Less precision,muted high's,dull and lifeless.
When the electricity came on and the inverter shifted into bypass mode,the sound immediately improved.Next I shifted the connection from the 5 amp socket which receives power through the inverter,to a 15 amp socket which is directly connected to the distribution board without passing through the inverter.The transparency,clarity and resolution added to the SQ was palpable and obvious.The 5 amp connection which passes through a longwinded route and the inverter is history!Henceforth the Belkin surge protector/extension board will be plugged through the 15 amp socket.
I am fairly convinced at this point of time that power conditioning should only be attempted in places where the regular
supply of power is unstable.In cities with good power,it would be best to take basic precautions like keeping a lookout for loose contacts and sockets heating up and changing colour
Basic MOV surge protection can be put in the chain at some point and replaced when the MOV dies in the line of duty.
Beyond that I plan to leave protection to providence,and let my power amp enjoy 'natural power' from the 15 amp wall outlet.
*****Of course power coming through an inverter should not be compared to power coming from a Servo,UPS or CVT,but until I can audition those in my system and find convincing proof of some benefit,I will settle for elementary protection and unimpaired SQ and dynamics

 

[avidyarthy]

No amps .... no AVRs ... should ever be run on Inverters. That is something which was specifically told by the seller, when I bought those.

If there is a load-shedding, better to give the AV equipments some well-earned rest!

 

[Kittu]

No amps .... no AVRs ... should ever be run on Inverters. That is something which was specifically told by the seller, when I bought those.

If there is a load-shedding, better to give the AV equipments some well-earned rest!

What about the most common expensive item TV can that be used on inverter ? All these OLEDs, LED, LCD and Plasma are immune in this situation , How ?

 

[avidyarthy]

I DID write AV equipments ... obviously covers all TVs too ...

CRT has somehow absorbed these issues to 'some' extent ... over a period of time manufacturers HAVE made it or somewhat, kind of immune to voltage outrages within limits. Still, it is the SMPS that goes faulty most of the times ... be it, LED. OLED, LCD, Plasma, CRT etc etc.

 

[rana_kirti]

i put the same queries to my electrician.... he made me change 2 things...

1. Change the local brand MCB's to Havells.

2. Connect my belkin gold series plug to the bigger power inlet beacuse it has more power supply and thicker cables than the regular power inlet as the regular has lesser power and thinner cables.

 

[sidlal]

@sidlal
In your post you had mentioned using a 5kva Servo to power your Krell which has a peak consumption of 3.4 kva.Have you done a comparison with which SOUNDS better,power through the Servo or through a direct connection to the wall socket.Strictly from the SQ point of view is a Servo a good option?
Do you think an adequately high powered Servo can provide the dynamic load for a big power amp?
Have you tried an Isolation Transformer in your system?

I compared the direct wall connection with the connection through servo and could not hear any difference in the SQ. I personally feel that the servo is a good option provided you can keep it close to the DB so that you don't hear the sound of the servo in your listening room when it corrects the input voltage. I have no complaints on the dynamic load handling connected through the servo even when I hear the music at peak levels. Please note that my line to the amps is a dedicated line from the DB and uses heavy gauge internal wiring and 20 Amp sockets. I have not tried the Isolation Transformer so have no idea how that would fare.

Hope this thread has not confused you more than when you made your initial post. Reading through it today, I am very confused

Would be keen to know what you finally decide upon.

Cheers!

 

[ajay124]

The Vienna Acoustic's have been singing since I 'discovered' the 15 amp wall socket.I had powered the system through the inverter because the 5 amp socket was behind the audio rack,therefore all the cables were hidden from view.Turn's out it was a blunder:sad:
Whatever short comings I had perceived in the VA's are gone!The mid range is clean as a whistle,the top end airy and true.The bass tight and focused.The sound is transparent and sweet through and through,both with the 'big' music of Mahler and Stravinsky and the 'small' concerto's and serenades of Bach,Mozart and Dvorak.
I am gradually learning that quite often the best upgrades are for free.Buying expensive hardware is not enough.One has to learn through trial and error to get the best out of it in the listening room.

 

[rana_kirti]

i can't remember but i think i read somewhere that a sub-woofer should not be connected to a ups.... can someone confirm this ?