POWER GAMES:Servo Stabilizer,CVT or Online UPS?

[mandeep]

Hi,

I have been using ALPHA 3KVA servo stabilizer for my onkyo S6200 HTIB for the past one year. This device was flawless and the SQ was simply superb. Lately i have been facing severe voltage fluctuation in my new house and since this servo has a input range of 170-240V, it could not work when the voltage droped below 150V. So i approached vertex and the guy suggested me to go for a 5KVA servo stab (Range 100 - 270V)for my entire house. SInce the power drops horribly bad in the evening, i thought it is better to go for a stabilizer for my entire house. Yesterday the 5KV servo was installed and it has been working pretty well since then. I could see a drastic improvement in fans and tubelights.
However, since this model is not customized for AV requirements, I feel that the SQ has been drastically deteriorated. My sub used to blow my ears of with the old 3KVA ALPHA servo. But now i hardly get that feel and also the sub makes some dhuk dhuk noice occasionally. I feel it is due to the lack of EMI/RFI filter in the servo. I have asked the vertex guy to provide me an EMI/RFI filter and he has agreed to do it for an additional cost. I would like to know if this will solve my problem? are there any surge protector with a built in EMI/RFI filetr? Please advise.
btw, i got the 5KVA servo for 19K from vertex. Not sure if its a good deal. Pls Let me know your thoughts.

Cheers,
Amuthan

5KVA servo for the entire house is not sufficient.Calculate the total Load in watts of all the attached equipments, fridge+cooler+AC+microwave+washing machine+fans+tube-lights/CFL's etc the load might be huge.

you may end up damaging ur AV euipment this way.

As pionted out by Ajay an online UPS is the best bet

 

[ajay124]

My long and specific telephone complaint to the local electricity board,citing the input voltage I am getting,in each phase seems to have resulted in immediate action.I was happily surprised when I checked the voltage a little while back to find that all three phases are now showing a voltage of 230-235.Hope the good times continue for a while.

 

[malvai]

Bro! this kind of power problem is EXACTLY what i have been dreading when I think of my move to New Delhi. i believe that it is even worse in Gurgaon, than what you folks suffer in good old Chandigarh...

 

[amuthanr]

I would say the deterioration in SQ is because you have bundled the entire load of the house on the same servo which is supplying power to your audio/video.
For your AV system you need a separate servo or preferably an online UPS which can output enough power to satisfy the requirements of your system.If possible keep one phase only for your AV with no other load on it.
Before you spend any more cash remove all other load from your Vertex and connect it only to your AV to check whether the sound improves.You should find a good electrician to investigate the cause of the severe fluctuations.I doubt whether a satisfactory long term solution can be found for such wild swings in voltage.
For further clarity you can pm borg,venkatcr,arj

Thanks Ajay. This is exactly what i was worried about.I had spoken to the vertex guy about this and he recommended me to go for a single stab for my entire house rather than seperate stabs. He has told me that he would add an EMI/RFI filter and it would solve the problem. Is this true? Also a local dealer in chennai gave me a quote of 13K for 5KVA servo wide range (120 - 270V) with 5 year warranty. But i paid 19K to vertex. Do you think its an over kill?

 

[ajay124]

Thanks Ajay. This is exactly what i was worried about.I had spoken to the vertex guy about this and he recommended me to go for a single stab for my entire house rather than seperate stabs. He has told me that he would add an EMI/RFI filter and it would solve the problem. Is this true? Also a local dealer in chennai gave me a quote of 13K for 5KVA servo wide range (120 - 270V) with 5 year warranty. But i paid 19K to vertex. Do you think its an over kill?

I have corresponded with Mr.Manjunath (Vertex) on the phone/mail and found him to be a knowledgable and helpful person.If I had opted for a servo stabilizer I would have purchased it from Vertex.I do not think adding RFI/EMI filters will do much good.The filters may remove a little bit of noise from your system but would not solve the problem of reduced dynamics.In order to obtain any benefit from the filters you would have to place the servo in the same room as your AV.Since your servo is meant for the whole house,I presume it has been placed near the distribution board.Once the power leaves the servo and travels to your system it may again pick up RFI/EMI interference en-route.
As you have already purchased a new servo you can use it for the rest of your house.As long as the load placed on the servo is less than 5kva it would probably work reasonably well in the 160-260 range.But you may run into problems if you start running an AC on the same servo!
For your AV you could use your older stabilizer for the moment and buy an online UPS at a later date.A 3 kva Emerson UPS costing 27-28K would do wonders for you AV set up.But a single stabilizer for your entire house and AV is completely the wrong approach in my opinion.Also you should keep it in mind that a servo provides NO PROTECTION against power surges.The built in MOV surge protectors are so basic that they would in all probability be rendered useless after the first few surges.

 

[amuthanr]

5KVA servo for the entire house is not sufficient.Calculate the total Load in watts of all the attached equipments, fridge+cooler+AC+microwave+washing machine+fans+tube-lights/CFL's etc the load might be huge.

you may end up damaging ur AV euipment this way.

As pionted out by Ajay an online UPS is the best bet

I do not have an AC/cooler/Microwave/Geyser as of now. When vertex gave me a demo, i switched on all appliances like fridge/mixer/IFB washing machine(intense spin mode)/4 Tube lights+5 fans + some CFL bulbs + 32 LCD+STB+ my onkyo volume pumped to 55. With all this, the servo displayed 28% load. Since i am in a rented house, i do not think my load is gonna increase any furthur. When i move to my own flat, i am planning to add another 5KVA servo in another phase for all heavy stuff. More over, I will not be running all my equipments at the same time. So i believe 5KVA is ok as of now. Pls let me know ur thoughts

 

[amuthanr]

I have corresponded with Mr.Manjunath (Vertex) on the phone/mail and found him to be a knowledgable and helpful person.If I had opted for a servo stabilizer I would have purchased it from Vertex.I do not think adding RFI/EMI filters will do much good.The filters may remove a little bit of noise from your system but would not solve the problem of reduced dynamics.In order to obtain any benefit from the filters you would have to place the servo in the same room as your AV.Since your servo is meant for the whole house,I presume it has been placed near the distribution board.Once the power leaves the servo and travels to your system it may again pick up RFI/EMI interference en-route.
As you have already purchased a new servo you can use it for the rest of your house.As long as the load placed on the servo is less than 5kva it would probably work reasonably well in the 160-260 range.But you may run into problems if you start running an AC on the same servo!
For your AV you could use your older stabilizer for the moment and buy an online UPS at a later date.A 3 kva Emerson UPS costing 27-28K would do wonders for you AV set up.But a single stabilizer for your entire house and AV is completely the wrong approach in my opinion.Also you should keep it in mind that a servo provides NO PROTECTION against power surges.The built in MOV surge protectors are so basic that they would in all probability be rendered useless after the first few surges.

Ajay, the vertex guy in chennai strongly recommended me not to go for an online UPS for the following reasons.
1) Since it works on double conversion (AC to DC and then DC to AC), online ups has very less efficiency compared to servo.
2) The sealed batteries need replacement every 2 years.

I have placed my AV setup in my living room which also houses the electrical main. The servo is placed in the same room as my AV. So as you said, the EMI/RFI filter may be little useful.For surge protection, i am planning to get a belkin gold series surge protector.Read some good reviews about it.When enquired about a 2KVA wide range servo (120 to 270V), vertex quoted rs 15,500. So the guy recommended me to go for entire house for just 19K and that he would provide EMI/RFI filter seperately.

As of now i do not have an AC. even if i buy one in near future, i will be using it only during the night. so i dont think my AV and AC is gonna run at the same time. Vertex has already bought back my old servo stab and now i am left with this single 5kva servo. Kind of confused now.

 

[ajay124]

"Since it works on double conversion (AC to DC and then DC to AC),online ups has very less efficiency compared to servo"

My opinion is that you have been GROSSLY misled.Most of the servo dealers and manufacturers I spoke to unanimously agreed that an online UPS is a better,newer and more effective technology.A servo can only provide constant voltage.It does not provide surge protection or backup for switching off the system in case of power failure.
Take your time.Read this entire thread.I believe all the information you are seeking and a lot more is already there on the thread.I believe an online UPS is the only solution for your system.It will provide constant voltage,clean power and surge protection.There was a marked improvement in dynamics and SQ after I began using the UPS.I do not think any other solution will give you all these things in such an effective manner.Try to arrange an audition.I was only convinced after a three day audition.
The online UPS has a constantly running cooling fan which is very noisy.Therefore the UPS would have to be placed in a different room or outside somewhere.Batteries would need to be replaced after 2-3 years at a (current) cost of roughly 3K.

 

[malvai]

"Since it works on double conversion (AC to DC and then DC to AC),online ups has very less efficiency compared to servo"

My opinion is that you have been GROSSLY misled.Most of the servo dealers and manufacturers I spoke to unanimously agreed that an online UPS is a better,newer and more effective technology.A servo can only provide constant voltage.It does not provide surge protection or backup for switching off the system in case of power failure.
Take your time.Read this entire thread.I believe all the information you are seeking and a lot more is already there on the thread.I believe an online UPS is the only solution for your system.It will provide constant voltage,clean power and surge protection.There was a marked improvement in dynamics and SQ after I began using the UPS.I do not think any other solution will give you all these things in such an effective manner.Try to arrange an audition.I was only convinced after a three day audition.
The online UPS has a constantly running cooling fan which is very noisy.Therefore the UPS would have to be placed in a different room or outside somewhere.Batteries would need to be replaced after 2-3 years at a (current) cost of roughly 3K.

I concur with Ajay on this. My own research too leads me to the same conclusions that he is so painstakingly writing out for you.
In fact, a very reputable dealer who deals with Imported power conditioning products also candidly shared with me that a good quality UPS will take care of all the problems that plague the Indian electricity supply.
Unless you want to spend lakhs on importing a Accuphase power re-generator....

 

[prem]

If you do not want the battery back up, then a CVT will do the job for you. It will take care of surges/spikes, electrical noise and voltage regulation

 

[ajay124]

If you do not want the battery back up, then a CVT will do the job for you. It will take care of surges/spikes, electrical noise and voltage regulation

I have not used a CVT but I think what prem is saying is correct.A CVT will take care of all these aspects.A servo does only one part of the job.It does not provide surge protection,isolation or noise filtering.If you dig a little deeper into the specs of 'surge protectors' and 'power strips' you will find that most of them are offering a basic metal oxide varistor also known as a sacrificial device,because with the first few surges it essentially sacrifices itself to protect the electronics.It's power wanes with every surge and sooner or later it 'dies'.What is left behind is a shell providing 'psychological' protection only.In reality once the MOV inside the 'surge protector' stops working,the user is blissfully unaware that his equipment is completely unprotected.A basic MOV in any case may not provide much protection even when it is functioning.

 

[mandeep]

If you do not want the battery back up, then a CVT will do the job for you. It will take care of surges/spikes, electrical noise and voltage regulation

CVT is a good choice as it has no semiconductors or moving parts used, hence very high reliability,gives highly isolated output free from spikes surges and transient and excellent input to output isolation characteristics.

But certain precautions are must with a CVT:

1.Switch Off the CVT when not in use.

2. Before switching ON the equipment, switch ON the CVT properly.

3. Do not place anything on top of the CVT.

4. All the connections should be firmly tightened.

5. Neutral and line (N&L) of the mains plug of CVT should be matched with mains supply.

6.Sufficient air circulation should be maintained near CVT for better cooling and efficiency.

 

[prem]

Yes Mandeep, certain precautions need to be taken when using a CVT. But they are basic. The same will also apply to most electrical equipment

 

[square_wave]

Ajay, heres a tip.

If you have any of those finolex cables left, please try this.

Braid them and make your own power cables for the gear. You will need to buy IEC females and Males to complete them. Elcom (local) or wattgate (imported) are good for the IEC females while some crabtree or Anchor will work for the males. Make one and check it out. You may replace some of your expensive power cables as many folks whom I know have already done.

 

[square_wave]

If you do not want the battery back up, then a CVT will do the job for you. It will take care of surges/spikes, electrical noise and voltage regulation

Hi Prem,

What is a good CVT that you would recommend in India ? 1 or 2 kva.

 

[moktan]

i am a 'johnny come lately' in this thread..but was wondering, after having acquired a battery powered amp with which i am quite happy...
can i now go for a regular UPS to power the source and the dac?


thanks and regards

 

[ajay124]

Ajay, heres a tip.

If you have any of those finolex cables left, please try this.

Braid them and make your own power cables for the gear. You will need to buy IEC females and Males to complete them. Elcom (local) or wattgate (imported) are good for the IEC females while some crabtree or Anchor will work for the males. Make one and check it out. You may replace some of your expensive power cables as many folks whom I know have already done.

I have contemplated doing this and I feel they may perform better than the generic cables I am using at the moment.For the cable I would like to use a LAPP cable (recommended by manufacturers supplying power solutions to industries) rather than Havell or Finolex.A 90 meter roll of 4mm LAPP costs roughly 4K which is close to double the Finolex prices.Unfortunately it is only available as a full roll at a few shops.Hopefully forum members who have made and used similar cables will post their experiences with cables and connectors available in India

 

[arj]

i am a 'johnny come lately' in this thread..but was wondering, after having acquired a battery powered amp with which i am quite happy...
can i now go for a regular UPS to power the source and the dac?


thanks and regards

No Moktan, it will not help the Dac which is very sensitive to good power . what is your source ? if it is an HTPC, you need to isolate its power supply from the rest of the chain...it can corrupt the power. if it is a cd player/ transport then its power requirement is the same as the dac.

 

[moktan]

No Moktan, it will not help the Dac which is very sensitive to good power . what is your source ? if it is an HTPC, you need to isolate its power supply from the rest of the chain...it can corrupt the power. if it is a cd player/ transport then its power requirement is the same as the dac.

the source is a laptop (OS ubuntu lucid lynx), the dac is a nos, usb dac with a tube buffer..have noticed that even with the tube off (this happens when the power is off) the dac takes power from the laptop although the volume in this case is quite low...
thanks..

 

[prem]

Hi Square_Wave


I use the KB Powercare CVT. Its a Hyderabad based company. Jacob from Rethm recommended this company to me. So i just went with them. What is your power requirement. Mine is about 600 watts. So i went with a 1KVA. You need to be about 40-50% more. If your requirement is 1000 watts go with a 1.5KVA.