Samsung 2013 Plasma TV's

Saw the 51F8505 in a mall in Finland.

There was a distinct judder in motion especially when the camera moves across a room.
There was one 46" LED kept in front (about 8 ft. in front) of the the 51" plasma and that one had absolutely no judder at all. I think it was a 8 or a 9 series model.

I observed for over 5 minutes, and I could feel the judder very clearly everytime. The signal was a Full HD (Samsung demo video).

Overall, disappointed with this single point.
 
The stand for the Samsung PS64F8500AR has got to be the worst designed stand in the history of TV. The stand is a perfect example of form over function and also proves that, stupidity truly has no bounds. The stand makes the TV a no option for the majority of people who cannot hang their TVs on the wall.

I don't believe that is true. Somewhere I read a review which said the stand could be removed. It comes detached in the box. If you have verified, then I will go with what you are saying
 
Saw the 51F8505 in a mall in Finland.

There was a distinct judder in motion especially when the camera moves across a room.


Overall, disappointed with this single point.

Rather than being disappointing you should have gotten into the menu and turned on cinema smooth, this animates judder and this always has been a feature in all of Samsung plasma's since 2010, but i personally like the pic with judder in plasma's, even kuro has mild judder, i don't like the judder correction algorithm which introduces the soap opera effect in most of the top end LCD televisions.


the stand makes the TV a no option for the majority of people who cannot hang their TVs on the wall.



I don't understand what you are trying to say here, the F8500 is one of the best best built and beautiful looking tv ever created and it is the best looking design of this year IMO. IF you don't like the stand then remove it and wall mount the television.


I don't believe that is true. Somewhere I read a review which said the stand could be removed. It comes detached in the box. If you have verified, then I will go with what you are saying

Of course the stand is removable i mean wouldn't it be too far fetched to think that that stand is non removable? lol that has to be the most funniest assumption ever.
 
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Saw the 51F8505 in a mall in Finland.

There was a distinct judder in motion especially when the camera moves across a room.
There was one 46" LED kept in front (about 8 ft. in front) of the the 51" plasma and that one had absolutely no judder at all. I think it was a 8 or a 9 series model.

I observed for over 5 minutes, and I could feel the judder very clearly everytime. The signal was a Full HD (Samsung demo video).

Overall, disappointed with this single point.

For me atleast, motion handling is paramount in a tv.
I am just curious, was it being played in cinema mode or any bright (demo) mode?
 
For me atleast, motion handling is paramount in a tv.
I am just curious, was it being played in cinema mode or any bright (demo) mode?

Well, I do not know about the mode, but the same video was displayed on multiple TV's, typical in any mall.
Sadly there were no Panasonic plasma's for me to see.
At 2700 Euros, it is damn expensive (51F8505) btw
 
64F8500 on sale in infibeam for 1.87L. I wish Samsung gets the 51" in India soon.

64" is too large for the viewing distance and the mostly SD content it will be used to view.
 
Rather than being disappointing you should have gotten into the menu and turned on cinema smooth, this animates judder and this always has been a feature in all of Samsung plasma's since 2010, but i personally like the pic with judder in plasma's, even kuro has mild judder, i don't like the judder correction algorithm which introduces the soap opera effect in most of the top end LCD televisions.

Unfortunately there was no one around to help with that menu change. To be honest, I was very close to developing a mild headache in less than 5 minutes of viewing the judder. Sorry, but this is definitely not what a TV should be displaying. And remember this was the default slow motion Samsung video. It should be flawless.
 
64F8500 on sale in infibeam for 1.87L. I wish Samsung gets the 51" in India soon.

64" is too large for the viewing distance and the mostly SD content it will be used to view.

Actually F8500 incorporates a totally new sub-pixel size, the sub-pixels are quite larger than any other plasma on the market so there is almost no gap between pixels this results in much sharper image and brighter as well, many users have stated that 64 "F8500 is sharper than 50" inch plasma from Panasonic or even the 51" lower end Samsung plasma.


Unfortunately there was no one around to help with that menu change. To be honest, I was very close to developing a mild headache in less than 5 minutes of viewing the judder. Sorry, but this is definitely not what a TV should be displaying. And remember this was the default slow motion Samsung video. It should be flawless.

I am not sure what you mean by flawless motion but any display without judder reduction algorithm will display film judder, most of the top end plasma' don't have a judder correction algorithm as it introduces a soap opera effect, if soap opera effect produced by most top end LCD is what you prefer i guess then its personal choice, i personally find soap opera effect induced judder free motion to be artificial and the film effect goes away making it appear more like a camcorder video.Samsung has something called as cinema smooth which totally eliminates judder but the movement looks artificial rather that what you get to see 24fps movie. Every plasma has judder including the kuro.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/873724/what-exactly-is-judder

http://www.avsforum.com/t/737604/what-causes-motion-judder-is-it-1080p-60/60#post_8719108

http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/judder

http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/soap-opera-effect-motion-interpolation
 
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Actually F8500 incorporates a totally new sub-pixel size, the sub-pixels are quite larger than any other plasma on the market so there is almost no gap between pixels this results in much sharper image and brighter as well, many users have stated that 64 "F8500 is sharper than 50" inch plasma from Panasonic or even the 51" lower end Samsung plasma.


Good point. Does anyone know if the Samsung brand shops in Bangalore have F8500 on display ?
 
I am not sure what you mean by flawless motion but any display without judder reduction algorithm will display film judder, most of the top end plasma' don't have a judder correction algorithm as it introduces a soap opera effect, if soap opera effect produced by most top end LCD is what you prefer i guess then its personal choice, i personally find soap opera effect induced judder free motion to be artificial and the film effect goes away making it appear more like a camcorder video.Samsung has something called as cinema smooth which totally eliminates judder but the movement looks artificial rather that what you get to see 24fps movie. Every plasma has judder including the kuro.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/873724/what-exactly-is-judder

http://www.avsforum.com/t/737604/what-causes-motion-judder-is-it-1080p-60/60#post_8719108

What is judder? - Definition from WhatIs.com

What is soap opera effect (motion interpolation)? - Definition from WhatIs.com

Thank you for the deep dive technical links.


I will reserve my comments till I get to see another F8500/8505 at 51 inches somewhere. Till that time, I know that this TV needs the anti-judder thing turned on while watching say a DVD or any other 24 fps video to prevent a headache. :)
 
Unfortunately there was no one around to help with that menu change. To be honest, I was very close to developing a mild headache in less than 5 minutes of viewing the judder. Sorry, but this is definitely not what a TV should be displaying. And remember this was the default slow motion Samsung video. It should be flawless.

Looks like Cnet also observed judder with this plasma, although i never care for Cnet reviews they seem to agree with you on this one.They noticed black level better than ST60 and VT50 but almost same as VT60 without cinema smooth engaged and say it has the best 3D, best screen uniformity and shadow details and preserves black level better than any plasma,brighter than any plasma ever tested but still they rate it is below VT60:rolleyes: lol Cnet.

Black level: The F8500 can produce some of the deepest levels of black of any display I've seen, beating the depth of all but the very best plasmas and local dimming LEDs. In our lineup, which includes the best flat-panel TVs we have available (and, I'd argue, most of the best ever made), it looked just a shade lighter than only the VT60, the Kuro, and the Elite in most dark and mixed scenes. In the very dark "Drive" Blu-ray, for example, the depth of the F8500's letterbox bars and black areas like Driver's car stereo and leather gloves (4:12) was superb. Even sitting right between the Kuro and the VT60, the F8500 looked almost as deep -- and made the VT50, ST60, and especially the E8000 seem slightly grayish as opposed to inky black.

Unfortunately, you do have to trade away true film cadence if you want the absolute deepest black levels the F8500 can deliver. When I switched the Film Mode setting from Off to Cinema Smooth, those inky blacks got slightly brighter, reaching about the level of the ST60 and the VT50 (from 0.002 fL to 0.004, if you're counting). That's not much of a jump, so film cadence purists might not mind making it. On the other hand, of course, all of the other sets delivered correct cadence without sacrificing black levels.

Shadow detail was another strong suit for the F8500. As Irene grasps Driver's hand under the vacillating light (30:29), all of the folds in his pants and jacket, along with the shadows along the steering column and door, looked correct, neither too bright nor too dim, and every detail was preserved. That said, I'd still give a slight advantage in most scenes to the Panasonics, particularly the VT60, where certain shadow details appeared just a bit more distinct, especially in areas very close to black. The walls during the slow pan over Driver's room (37:20) or, even better, the very deep shadows and gasses in the Creation sequence from "Tree of Life" (23:48), again showed the Panasonics' slight advantage. In any case the difference was very subtle, and it was tough to pick a clear winner between the F8500 and the three Panasonics, even with the benefit of side-by-side comparison. It was easier to see the F8500's superiority to the E8000 in this area.

I watched a lot of Drive as well dark parts of other films, and I didn't notice any instances of abrupt changes in overall black level -- aka "brightness pops." I also checked out the two pops tests that created the artifact in 2011 Samsung plasmas, in "Bram Stoker's Dracula" and "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone," but the F8500 didn't show the issue there either.

A strange image retention artifact did occur on the F8500 that I've never seen before. When I paused the image or the shot lingered for long enough on a dark stationary element, purplish noise would begin to gradually accumulate in shadowy areas. It happened in the upper-right of the screen on the beige car interior (between 4:14 and 4:19), for example, and became quite obvious if I paused. It wasn't overly distracting, and disappeared nearly immediately when the image changed, but it's still unusual and potentially distracting in certain stationary shots with near-black material. I also saw it during calibration (see the picture settings above for details), but in any case this issue doesn't spoil my recommendation.

Color accuracy: The colors on the F8500 are superb. The rich saturation imparted by its deep black levels combined with very low measured error levels to create a palate that stands against the lineup extremely well. The only flaw was a spike in blue in the middle of the grayscale that adjustment couldn't tame, an issue that perhaps manifested in slightly cooler skin tones in areas like the face of Irene in the restaurant (46:54).

On the other hand, the F8500 came closer than the others to the E8000 which, according to our measurements, has the best overall color in the lineup. It's difficult to say which was "better" -- the warmer Panasonic VTs or the slightly cooler Samsungs -- but to my eye the Panasonics did appear a bit more pleasing and saturated. Regardless, the F8500 looked slightly more accurate than the ST60, and significantly more accurate than the Kuro and the Sharp Elite.

The measurement of the F8500's near-black (5%) was also among the best I've ever seen, leading to pleasingly neutral dark areas and shadows. Of course, most of the others were also extremely good in this area, but the F8500 was just a bit better.

Video processing: As I mentioned above, this area is the F8500's only major stumbling block. The only way to achieve the correct film cadence of 1080p/24 sources, like most Blu-ray movies, is to engage the Cinema Smooth setting under Film Mode -- which lightens black levels somewhat. When I did so, I saw the nice, smooth-but-not-too-smooth movement in areas like the swinging camera in the grocery store in "Drive" (15:30) and of course even more clearly in my traditional such test, the pan over the aircraft carrier from "I Am Legend" (24:58).

Switching back to Off, which delivers the deepest black levels, caused the cadence to assume the characteristic, slightly hitching motion of 2:3 pulldown. It's a subtle difference, but videophiles will have to choose between correct cadence and the deepest blacks. I chose the latter, for what it's worth.

The F8500 offers two levels of dejudder that introduce the characteristic Soap Opera Effect. Even the weakest, Standard, produced an exceedingly smooth image that won't appeal to those who dislike that effect. Unlike Panasonic's plasmas, however, engaging dejudder did not affect my motion resolution measurements.

As with previous Samsungs, the default Auto2 Film Mode setting for 1080i sources didn't result in proper deinterlacing; I had to switch to Auto 1 to get the PNF8500 to pass that test.

Bright lighting: The performance of the F8500 in high ambient light is better than any other plasma I've tested, and in this lineup is second only to the Sharp Elite LED. Its largest advantage over the other plasmas came in the form of prodigious light output.

Compared directly to the also-60-inch VT60, the F8500 almost doubled its maximum light output; I measured a peak of 83 fL (footlambert) in Dynamic mode on the Samsung, compared to 49 in Vivid mode on the Panasonic using window patterns.

The F8500 also maintains higher light output with full-screen patterns, measuring 19.1 fL compared to just 9.8 on the Panasonic. Hockey or skiing, where much of the screen is occupied by white or very bright material, appears markedly brighter on the F8500 than on other plasmas this size, and other content is proportionately brighter too, depending on how much of the screen is occupied by white. Most content is more mixed between light and dark, however, making this F8500 advantage less important. It's also worth noting that most LEDs can maintain an even brighter image than the F8500 with near- or full-white content.

Speaking of importance, here's the part where I remind readers that 40 fL, the amount to which I calibrate, is plenty for a moderately lit room. But if you have an extremely bright room or just prefer watching an extremely bright picture (like Vivid or Dynamic on your current TV), the F8500 comes closer to the light output of an LED TV than any plasma I've tested. Of course an LED can get even brighter; the 60-inch Elite, for example, can achieve a scorching 300 (window) and 133 (full-screen) fL in certain settings.

The F8500 has an excellent screen filter to go along with its light output potential. It preserved black levels under bright overhead lighting better than any TV in my lineup aside from the Sharp, keeping the image punchy instead of washed out. All of the plasmas aside from the Kuro were quite close in this regard; the VT50 was actually second-best at preserving black, followed by the VT60 and then the ST60 and E8000.

The ability to reduce reflections is also very important, and while none of these displays can match a matte-screened LED/LCD in that area, the F8500 was one of the best. Again, its least wasn't much, but reflections were a bit brighter on the VT60.

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/samsung-pn51f8500/4505-6482_7-35731512-2.html
 
F8500 is no doubt more or less a reference now equaling the panas:licklips:. But somehow I am little hesitant to call it better than vt60, considering the tone of the reviewer of cnet.

"The F8500 deserves a spot in the upper echelon of TVs you can buy, and in a bright room it's the best plasma I've ever seen. In moderate rooms, it doesn't quite match up to the picture quality of the like-priced Panasonic TC-PVT60 series, and while I'd say it's a superior performer to the ST60 by a nose, they both earn the same "9" rating in this section.

This plasma manages to combine exceedingly deep black levels with the potential for whites brighter than any other high-performance plasma available. Color accuracy is superb, if not quite reference level, and of course it exhibits the perfect off-angle and picture uniformity characteristics of the breed. Its video processing unfortunately requires you to make a choice between correct 1080p/24 film cadence and the deepest black levels, however, something you won't have to do with other TVs. One tertiary weakness is sound quality, while its 3D picture quality, aided again by superior light output, was outstanding."
 
Quote from Samy 51e8000 thread

"51f8500 is now available at Rahul Electronics in Mumbai @ 1.19 lakhs!
Samsung India's website is still not updated"
 
Yep, agree. A lots depends on real life viewing conditions (and the price).

GT50 was a good display. Amazing blacks but limited dynamic range in Cinema and Professional modes. Add DFC and IR. It was a let down experience. Glad I got my money back :)

Samsung and Panasonic are both good but somehow I liked E8000 over the GT50. Hope F8500 and VT60 are both on par. We consumers and enthusiasts don't stand to lose anything, do we?

I currently own GT50 and been told that I'll be refund due to screen uniformity issues but its taking ages can you suggest how long it took you to get refund on your tv?

THanks
 
I currently own GT50 and been told that I'll be refund due to screen uniformity issues but its taking ages can you suggest how long it took you to get refund on your tv?

THanks

I got a refund in 3 weeks but had to escalate quite a few times. Demand that you want to speak directly with Shailesh Mishra. Panasonic customer service stinks and is the worst I have come across. Yet they live in a make-believe world that customers have no issues whatsoever.
 
I got a refund in 3 weeks but had to escalate quite a few times. Demand that you want to speak directly with Shailesh Mishra. Panasonic customer service stinks and is the worst I have come across. Yet they live in a make-believe world that customers have no issues whatsoever.

What is the post of Shailesh Mishra in Panasonic? What issue you had on your tv? also have you replaced it with another tv or not yet?
 
What is the post of Shailesh Mishra in Panasonic? What issue you had on your tv? also have you replaced it with another tv or not yet?

He is the customer relations manager. I also spoke to (a certain) Vivek in Shailesh's brief absence. Believe me they have no clue what's going on at ground between customer service, Panasonic store and customers.

Let me know if you need help. I'll make a call to Shailesh and Vivek to support your case. My case is still open for unwarranted extension on refund and false promises to customer. Few resources cannot misrepresent the company by failing to deliver on their words.

GT50 has been a troubled Plasma line. ST50 looks better as I read many forum members are happy with it.

Panasonic 60 series will be a big NO for me if they continue to have DFC and IR. It's worse than on Samsung. Just waiting to demo 64F8000 before I take the plunge. I have seen reviewers and many go ga-ga over Panasonics. Having owned 50GT50 for 3 months I couldn't understand what the hype is all about unless you shutdown the lights or watch in really dimmed conditions. It led me to one conclusion... no reviewers' eyes and viewing environment can replace your own.

I am without a TV now. Watch movies over weekends on projector :) Just finished Argo :)
 
He is the customer relations manager. I also spoke to (a certain) Vivek in Shailesh's brief absence. Believe me they have no clue what's going on at ground between customer service, Panasonic store and customers.

Let me know if you need help. I'll make a call to Shailesh and Vivek to support your case. My case is still open for unwarranted extension on refund and false promises to customer. Few resources cannot misrepresent the company by failing to deliver on their words.

GT50 has been a troubled Plasma line. ST50 looks better as I read many forum members are happy with it.

Panasonic 60 series will be a big NO for me if they continue to have DFC and IR. It's worse than on Samsung. Just waiting to demo 64F8000 before I take the plunge. I have seen reviewers and many go ga-ga over Panasonics. Having owned 50GT50 for 3 months I couldn't understand what the hype is all about unless you shutdown the lights or watch in really dimmed conditions. It led me to one conclusion... no reviewers' eyes and viewing environment can replace your own.

I am without a TV now. Watch movies over weekends on projector :) Just finished Argo :)

I can certainly use some help, I had their technical person (Vipul) visit me from Mumbai to take pictures of panel, Camera he had was so pathetic my iPhone took better pictures than his camera (I've attached few pics) he admitted there was problem with panel and since then I've been waiting for my refund (its been few months now) I'm going to contact to some Ravinder tomorrow who is regional head or something.

St50 and GT50 used same panel just different boards from what I've heard but still difference between them can't be seen at all. Last from what I saw ST50 was sold for 90k and i bought GT50 at 105k.

I'm not looking forward to Panasonic's 2013 models either, from what I've seen in reviews till now is F8500's PQ is better than ST60 and VT50 and almost same as VT60 (VT got better blacks and F8500 better whites). Considering we won't get VT60 here or won't get them at reasonable price its obvious to go for F8500. Panasonic no wonder make amazing plasmas but their customer support, model availability and always launching their plasma at steep prices compared to Samsung makes Samsung obvious choice this year for me.

I'll be replacing my GT50 (once I get refund) with F8500 51"/64" (price 90k/175k) once prices slash near diwali when prices are lowest and offers are great (free goodies). Only thing which is bothering me about F8500 is judder issues, brightness pops and band issues reported by others in North America. So I'll keep eye on them and will do a lot of testing in showroom before I make a purchase also will be buying Samsung's additional warranty.

Do pm me your email or phone number, I'll get in touch with you with my details of TV so that you can help me get refund sooner :)

PS: In first 2 pictures you can see blue banding (screen uniformity issue) on right left and in center of TV, I was running d-nice's panel prepare slides which were gray in color so screen should be all gray and uniform without banding..
 

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