Separates v/s AVR - What lives more?

[ankitbhargava]

I would keep the post short and sweet

Having seen and read about short life of AVRs (specially Marantz & Denon) despite of proper ventilation, cooling, using PAs, power through Servo Stab etc .. do you think the separates (Processor + PA) have a better life as equipment as against AVRs?

I understand that there would be lucky Forum Members who have had no problem with life of the AVR equipment but unfortunately, for me personally I have almost lost 3 of them in 9 years.

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

If you have a lot of speakers then unless you have an economical amplifier solution, the pre/power route will work out more expensive, even if you are loosing an AVR every 3 years. If you don't mind cost I'd certainly recommend pre/power over AVR.

 

[ankitbhargava]

If you have a lot of speakers then unless you have an economical amplifier solution, the pre/power route will work out more expensive, even if you are loosing an AVR every 3 years. If you don't mind cost I'd certainly recommend pre/power over AVR.

Though I meant to ask the question in general to find out if anyone has better experience (in terms of life) using separates over AVR, I am considering an upgrade to separates in coming months. This time I would rather invest in something which lasts at least 6 years. I am not worried about the features.

Waiting to hear more experiences on the "life span"

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

AVRs by design have amplifier sections, the more speakers you use, the lower you load them, the louder you play, the longer you play will all cause heat. This will gradually eat away at it's internals. They also have the processing component which may malfunction. If one does the things I listed, it is best to keep the AC on during usage. All that said an AVR is a consumer A/V product, it probably falls into "planned obsolescence". It doesn't surprise me at all that you went through 1 every 3 years on average. The pre should be similar unless it's something high end like the Trinnov. I don't use AVRs or pre's so I can't really comment on their lifespan. I have only ever bought one AVR which lies in storage for over 10 years. Does it still work? I don't know. I would recommend not fretting over the life span of consumer electronic products, they aren't designed to last.

 

[ankitbhargava]

AVRs by design have amplifier sections, the more speakers you use, the lower you load them, the louder you play, the longer you play will all cause heat. This will gradually eat away at it's internals. They also have the processing component which may malfunction. If one does the things I listed, it is best to keep the AC on during usage. All that said an AVR is a consumer A/V product, it probably falls into "planned obsolescence". It doesn't surprise me at all that you went through 1 every 3 years on average. The pre should be similar unless it's something high end like the Trinnov. I don't use AVRs or pre's so I can't really comment on their lifespan. I have only ever bought one AVR which lies in storage for over 10 years. Does it still work? I don't know. I would recommend not fretting over the life span of consumer electronic products, they aren't designed to last.

I have A/C on all the time I am using HT gear along with Infinity Fans to keep AVR cool and still if "planned obsolescence" extends the life of an AVR to 3-4 years .. damn it!

I was hoping that keeping processing and amps separate, the lifespan should be way more :-/

 

[superczar]

Though I meant to ask the question in general to find out if anyone has better experience (in terms of life) using separates over AVR, I am considering an upgrade to separates in coming months. This time I would rather invest in something which lasts at least 6 years. I am not worried about the features.

Waiting to hear more experiences on the "life span"

Needless to say separate Power amps have a very long usable life.

As for AVRs, I’d suspect the lifespan issue arises usually on account of overburdening the relatively small power amps and small power supply trying to drive a very large number of channels.

On the flip side, a separate processor usually ends up pushing up the budget significantly (more expoensive processor, multiple Power amps ).

I have used a middle path for as long as I can remember i.e. getting a mid tier AVR that has pre outs and using an amp only for the Front LR channel.
That significantly reduces the burden on the AVR while also yielding (at least in theory) better SQ for stereo only playback when needed.

And not to jinx it but this stratgey has worked for me for the last 2 decades - am only on my 3rd AVR (SR6010) and 1st Amp (PM17) since
(excluding a 4th AVR and 2nd Amp that were brought recently for a separate room - but that doesn’t count for this anecdotal evidence i guess)

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

While a pre would not have the severe heat issues of an AVR, it is still consumer grade gear.

If you are not averse to cost then you might consider pro gear which is built to be reliable and last for a long time. I am not too familiar with pro processors but QSC is one place to start.

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

Needless to say separate Power amps have a very long usable life.

As for AVRs, I’d suspect the lifespan issue arises usually on account of overburdening the relatively small power amps and small power supply trying to drive a very large number of channels.

On the flip side, a separate processor usually ends up pushing up the budget significantly (more expoensive processor, multiple Power amps ).

I have used a middle path for as long as I can remember i.e. getting a mid tier AVR that has pre outs and using an amp only for the Front LR channel.
That significantly reduces the burden on the AVR while also yielding (at least in theory) better SQ for stereo only playback when needed.

And not to jinx it but this stratgey has worked for me for the last 2 decades - am only on my 3rd AVR and 1st Amp since
(excluding a 4th AVR and 2nd Amp that were brought recently for a separate room - but that doesn’t count for this anecdotal evidence i guess)

If I am not mistaken the OP already uses an external amp with his AVR.

 

[OM_2K19]

I understand that there would be lucky Forum Members who have had no problem with life of the AVR equipment but unfortunately, for me personally I have almost lost 3 of them in 9 years.

The average lifespan of Denon AV Receivers, irrespective of $$$, is around three years with moderate usage; that's what a service person told me (from the official service center). That said, it doesn't make much sense to spend anything more than 100K on AVR these days, IMHO.

 

[ankitbhargava]

If I am not mistaken the OP already uses an external amp with his AVR.

Yes, the existing AVR is only driving the Front heights and Rear surrounds, been like this for about an year now.

Needless to say separate Power amps have a very long usable life.

As for AVRs, I’d suspect the lifespan issue arises usually on account of overburdening the relatively small power amps and small power supply trying to drive a very large number of channels.

On the flip side, a separate processor usually ends up pushing up the budget significantly (more expoensive processor, multiple Power amps ).

I have used a middle path for as long as I can remember i.e. getting a mid tier AVR that has pre outs and using an amp only for the Front LR channel.
That significantly reduces the burden on the AVR while also yielding (at least in theory) better SQ for stereo only playback when needed.

And not to jinx it but this stratgey has worked for me for the last 2 decades - am only on my 3rd AVR (SR6010) and 1st Amp (PM17) since
(excluding a 4th AVR and 2nd Amp that were brought recently for a separate room - but that doesn’t count for this anecdotal evidence i guess)

As I said, I lately shifted to this and still (may be) on the verge of losing existing AVR

 

[Love4sound]

I would keep the post short and sweet

Having seen and read about short life of AVRs (specially Marantz & Denon) despite of proper ventilation, cooling, using PAs, power through Servo Stab etc .. do you think the separates (Processor + PA) have a better life as equipment as against AVRs?

I understand that there would be lucky Forum Members who have had no problem with life of the AVR equipment but unfortunately, for me personally I have almost lost 3 of them in 9 years.

Processor+PA for the sake of performance over avr? Definitely yes but in-terms of durability I haven’t heard any such cases.Power amp is a different story and they last for a decade or more. My 6 years old Yamaha HTIB Yht299 still running in my bro place after being used very roughly without any stabilizer or protection. My old Denon 2400 also used roughly with all channels driven to full potential for a year and now at my friends place who is using it only with a v gaurd for 2 years without any issues. If it’s for the sake of reliability there is no guarantee with electronics,Let it be avr or processor. I would switch to Processor+PA only for the sake of performance based on my personal experience with avr.

 

[ankitbhargava]

Processor+PA for the sake of performance over avr? Definitely yes but in-terms of durability I haven’t heard any such cases.Power amp is a different story and they last for a decade or more. My 6 years old Yamaha HTIB Yht299 still running in my bro place after being used very roughly without any stabilizer or protection. My old Denon 2400 also used roughly with all channels driven to full potential for a year and now at my friends place who is using it only with a v gaurd for 2 years without any issues. If it’s for the sake of reliability there is no guarantee with electronics,Let it be avr or processor. I would switch to Processor+PA only for the sake of performance based on my personal experience with avr.

Performance, yes I did experience that when I added PA to the system. Very audible difference, worth it!
Durability is where I am stuck

 

[Love4sound]

Durability is where I am stuck

Well there is no assurance with any electronics. If the current avr dies and budget is not an issue you can go for separates. Since you already have a PA for LCR get a budget PA for surrounds and heights. Again the cheapest separates available here is marantz which is also expensive if I am not wrong. You can also give Yamaha a chance. Their Aventage series are built with high quality components and are know to be more reliable then marantz or Denon.

 

[superczar]

Yes, the existing AVR is only driving the Front heights and Rear surrounds, been like this for about an year now.

As I said, I lately shifted to this and still (may be) on the verge of losing existing AVR

oh, thats sad to hear.
I am sure you have taken care of this - but just to rule out the obvious.
The equipment is not in a closed small AV unit rack i hope?

I keep all my equipment in a closet thats under the staircase - That space is also occupied by my home server so the temperatures inside are usually 3-4C higher than the ambient temperature.
However, the extra breathing space because of the size of the relatively huge size of the closet means that the temp spikes when running are still well under 40C.
The spikes you see in the first graph below are when the equipment is running - the ambient temps are on the graph under it.

These temps can otherwise easily hit 60+ in an enclosure

 

[sandeepmohan]

I have A/C on all the time I am using HT gear along with Infinity Fans to keep AVR cool and still if "planned obsolescence" extends the life of an AVR to 3-4 years .. damn it!I was hoping that keeping processing and amps separate, the lifespan should be way more :-/

I am beginning to wonder if the AC did have a negative effect on the life span of your our electronics, especially the AVR. Aside from your projector, I don't suppose anything else runs hot. Maybe lukewarm.

As long as you are not driving your amplifier hard for sustained periods, the provided passive cooling is sufficient. Forced fan cooling is NOT required, unless its kept inside a rack mount of some kind. If all the sides of the AVR or any component have sufficient ventilation around them, it is enough to dissipate heat. I see that you are running a external power amplifier too so there is hardly any load on your AVR.

What can a aircon do that is bad? Take a glass out of your refrigerator and keep it in room temperature for some time. What do you observe? You get a bit of condensation build up on the surface of the tumbler in a short period of time. I suspect this same effect and constant cycling between warm-cold-warm has resulted in moisture build up along the fine circuit boards inside your electronics. Do you have a direct draft of the AC on your electronics? This is even worse. We may think its nice cause it keeps them cool. When that cold air stops, internal heat results in moisture build up and that has nowhere to go. It just sits there on the electronics. Slowly and gradually, this will cause them to fail.

Electronics do not like moisture or an environment where temperature fluctuates a lot, rapidly. You may walk into your HT room, its less than ideal or warm. Maybe 28 degrees. You turn on your AC to 23 degrees, spend a couple of hours in there and turn off the AC after you are done. In this time, the room temperature is slowly increasing. That conditioned air is slowly starting to warm up which leads to moisture build up inside cramped spaces.

Modern electronics like an AVR are built with fine tolerances on their circuit boards. They are jammed packed with surface mounted resistors, micro processors, amplifier chips and what not. It is very easy to get dust and moisture build up in these fine spaces in between. This is not to say they are unreliable. Most are quite dependable these days and are built to last.

Pre Pro components generally serve the high end so are built to a higher standard. They should last longer. Its not a guarantee though. Your Emotiva can also fail. I have seen receiver brands (Onkyo) that are not recommended here and last a long time. They are the exact same AV receivers sold in India. Their HDMI boards are just fine.

The above does not mean you should not use aircon. That's totally fine. No harm in having some personal comfort. You just need to pay attention to the electronics in the room. Don't run the room too cold, if its not required. Ventilate the room when not in use. Leave some silica gel bags around sensitive electronics.

Technically; you are already set up as Pro Pre and using some of the best equipment available in the market. I don't think you can better this for longevity.

 

[efernand1]

IMHO

I think built quality matters and if one has used AVRs or AMPs built in the late 90s, they easily lasted for 5 to 10 years and even more...I recall my first AVR Yamaha RX V 440 which was a 6.1 I used the same for 10 years then gave it to my Bro in law who used it for another 5+ years and then he traded up to something else. That same AVR is still working till date with the person who has purchased it. I believe the components in the AVR / AMP matter and also what speakers you use and how the AVR is used etc.

Currently use my SR60xx Marantz for a couple of hours everyday on 50% volume for FM radio and even Spotify. Weekends when I am on a marathon time to watch a couple of seasons of something over OTT or a couple of movies, the AVR is on for almost 5-8 hours...sometimes even 10...as long as it is ventilated and used properly, nothing goes wrong. For the record, the AVR is 3 years old. No issues till date so far. I don't use the AC at all expect if it is a hot afternoon or put it on late at night. There is a small cooling fan 5 inch which is used purely to suck the heat out of the AVR. That also i put it on after an hour of use.

As a former DJ, Pro equipment used in clubs or open air shows are built up to operate with extreme temperatures. yes we do use cooling fans for them (if there is no fan inbuilt). I always insisted on keeping a table fan blowing on the amps to ensure it remains cool when a show is on for 6 to 8 hours as music is driven at high volumes. Unlike some who hook up their gear at 2 or 4 ohms. I always prefer and hook up speakers to the amp on 8 ohms load. I feel there is a better output and quality of sound and also the amp does not heat up too fast unless I am trying to drive power hungry speakers on a small amp.

Getting powered pro speakers (studio / Outdoor) may make sense with a pre, but as others have mentioned, it would be an expensive affair indeed. If You have the budget to invest. It should last you for a good 5 years minimum, possibly you may need to change the Pre if required to upgrade processing for movies etc.

 

[ankitbhargava]

Well there is no assurance with any electronics. If the current avr dies and budget is not an issue you can go for separates. Since you already have a PA for LCR get a budget PA for surrounds and heights. Again the cheapest separates available here is marantz which is also expensive if I am not wrong. You can also give Yamaha a chance. Their Aventage series are built with high quality components and are know to be more reliable then marantz or Denon.

Got it, I was assuming that the way dedicated Power Amps for a reason has better life, Pre-Processors may also have better life over AVRs.

oh, thats sad to hear.
I am sure you have taken care of this - but just to rule out the obvious.
The equipment is not in a closed small AV unit rack i hope?

I keep all my equipment in a closet thats under the staircase - That space is also occupied by my home server so the temperatures inside are usually 3-4C higher than the ambient temperature.
However, the extra breathing space because of the size of the relatively huge size of the closet means that the temp spikes when running are still well under 40C.
The spikes you see in the first graph below are when the equipment is running - the ambient temps are on the graph under it.

These temps can otherwise easily hit 60+ in an enclosure

View attachment 62629

Thank you for the details
Yes the custom made AV rack is open from all 4 sides and has sufficient ventilation too.
I generally use HT setup for maximum 2 hours in evening.
To ensure the AVR doesn't warm up too much, I started using Infinity Fans as well and now when I touch AVR anytime, its normal temperature.

I am beginning to wonder if the AC did have a negative effect on the life span of your our electronics, especially the AVR. Aside from your projector, I don't suppose anything else runs hot. Maybe lukewarm.

As long as you are not driving your amplifier hard for sustained periods, the provided passive cooling is sufficient. Forced fan cooling is NOT required, unless its kept inside a rack mount of some kind. If all the sides of the AVR or any component have sufficient ventilation around them, it is enough to dissipate heat. I see that you are running a external power amplifier too so there is hardly any load on your AVR.

What can a aircon do that is bad? Take a glass out of your refrigerator and keep it in room temperature for some time. What do you observe? You get a bit of condensation build up on the surface of the tumbler in a short period of time. I suspect this same effect and constant cycling between warm-cold-warm has resulted in moisture build up along the fine circuit boards inside your electronics. Do you have a direct draft of the AC on your electronics? This is even worse. We may think its nice cause it keeps them cool. When that cold air stops, internal heat results in moisture build up and that has nowhere to go. It just sits there on the electronics. Slowly and gradually, this will cause them to fail.

Electronics do not like moisture or an environment where temperature fluctuates a lot, rapidly. You may walk into your HT room, its less than ideal or warm. Maybe 28 degrees. You turn on your AC to 23 degrees, spend a couple of hours in there and turn off the AC after you are done. In this time, the room temperature is slowly increasing. That conditioned air is slowly starting to warm up which leads to moisture build up inside cramped spaces.

Modern electronics like an AVR are built with fine tolerances on their circuit boards. They are jammed packed with surface mounted resistors, micro processors, amplifier chips and what not. It is very easy to get dust and moisture build up in these fine spaces in between. This is not to say they are unreliable. Most are quite dependable these days and are built to last.

Pre Pro components generally serve the high end so are built to a higher standard. They should last longer. Its not a guarantee though. Your Emotiva can also fail. I have seen receiver brands (Onkyo) that are not recommended here and last a long time. They are the exact same AV receivers sold in India. Their HDMI boards are just fine.

The above does not mean you should not use aircon. That's totally fine. No harm in having some personal comfort. You just need to pay attention to the electronics in the room. Don't run the room too cold, if its not required. Ventilate the room when not in use. Leave some silica gel bags around sensitive electronics.

Technically; you are already set up as Pro Pre and using some of the best equipment available in the market. I don't think you can better this for longevity.

That a very detailed insight!
The Room is almost 20X18 and AC runs at very nominal cooling but I would not give away the possibility of Moisture because the problem started in April. Its not a dusty environment. I am posting picture to show the state of AVR when I opened it up to check moisture a week back.

Is there a way to verify presence of Moisture?

IMHO

I think built quality matters and if one has used AVRs or AMPs built in the late 90s, they easily lasted for 5 to 10 years and even more...I recall my first AVR Yamaha RX V 440 which was a 6.1 I used the same for 10 years then gave it to my Bro in law who used it for another 5+ years and then he traded up to something else. That same AVR is still working till date with the person who has purchased it. I believe the components in the AVR / AMP matter and also what speakers you use and how the AVR is used etc.

Currently use my SR60xx Marantz for a couple of hours everyday on 50% volume for FM radio and even Spotify. Weekends when I am on a marathon time to watch a couple of seasons of something over OTT or a couple of movies, the AVR is on for almost 5-8 hours...sometimes even 10...as long as it is ventilated and used properly, nothing goes wrong. For the record, the AVR is 3 years old. No issues till date so far. I don't use the AC at all expect if it is a hot afternoon or put it on late at night. There is a small cooling fan 5 inch which is used purely to suck the heat out of the AVR. That also i put it on after an hour of use.

As a former DJ, Pro equipment used in clubs or open air shows are built up to operate with extreme temperatures. yes we do use cooling fans for them (if there is no fan inbuilt). I always insisted on keeping a table fan blowing on the amps to ensure it remains cool when a show is on for 6 to 8 hours as music is driven at high volumes. Unlike some who hook up their gear at 2 or 4 ohms. I always prefer and hook up speakers to the amp on 8 ohms load. I feel there is a better output and quality of sound and also the amp does not heat up too fast unless I am trying to drive power hungry speakers on a small amp.

Getting powered pro speakers (studio / Outdoor) may make sense with a pre, but as others have mentioned, it would be an expensive affair indeed. If You have the budget to invest. It should last you for a good 5 years minimum, possibly you may need to change the Pre if required to upgrade processing for movies etc.

If a robust and expensive Pre-Pro is expected to last 5 years, I think its better to invest into an AVR only and use some internal Amps as well. Taking off amp load of 7 channels should keep any AVR happy I guess

 

[Naturelover]

How about a class D such as Pioneer?
I think their Elite range is very good.
I have been happy with a SC-LX57 for several years now. Though my usage is quite low.

 

[rrunner]

I have good experience with the yamaha Rxv2700. It is working fine for the last 13years with no extra care required. I would recommend going with the Yamaha Aventage series or Pioneer Elite series if reliability is a concern.
I am currently using separates(DIY Tube Amp+Pre) for music listening and AVR for HT.
Ps: My barely used Emotiva UPA7 amp used to malfunction every now and then. Having separates is no guarantee for a trouble free ownership but overall the build quality of separates feels superior.

 

[ankitbhargava]

How about a class D such as Pioneer?
I think their Elite range is very good.
I have been happy with a SC-LX57 for several years now. Though my usage is quite low.

I will explore Pioneer options

I have good experience with the yamaha Rxv2700. It is working fine for the last 13years with no extra care required. I would recommend going with the Yamaha Aventage series or Pioneer Elite series if reliability is a concern.
I am currently using separates(DIY Tube Amp+Pre) for music listening and AVR for HT.
Ps: My barely used Emotiva UPA7 amp used to malfunction every now and then. Having separates is no guarantee for a trouble free ownership but overall the build quality of separates feels superior.

wow!