Yamaha AVR owners thread

[Santy]

Some so called 'Gurus' feel that our forum is very dry and no informative threads are running. So decided to step in and provide some 'Gyaan'

http://www.hifivision.com/amplifier...eo-receiver-good-buy-urgent-reply-please.html

:lol: Hail the Savior of our forum!

 

[hemantwaghe]

Poem dedicated to Gurujeeeeeeeeeee

Come on you target for faraway laughter,
come on you stranger, you legend, you martyr, and shine!
You reached for the secret too soon, you cried for the moon.
Shine on you crazy diamond.
Threatened by shadows at night, and exposed in the light.
Shine on you crazy diamond.
Well you wore out your welcome with random precision,
rode on the steel breeze.
Come on you raver, you seer of visions,
come on you painter, you piper, you prisoner, and shine!

 

[Unnikrishnans]

Please advise on connecting the Yamaha 371, 471 reciever to JBL Cinema 500 speakers. The speakers are 8 Ohm while the reciever says 6 ohms, will it create problems if connect these recievers. Are Yamaha and JBL a decent combination.

 

[baijuxavior]

Please advise on connecting the Yamaha 371, 471 reciever to JBL Cinema 500 speakers. The speakers are 8 Ohm while the reciever says 6 ohms, will it create problems if connect these recievers.

You can safely connect 8 ohm speakers to 6 ohm speaker out. The output power will be lower than when you connect 6 ohm speakers.

 

[pupupuchi28]

Yamaha 371 comes with an advanced adjustment, where you can change the impedence acceptence for the speakers. Therefore you can connect 6 or 8 ohms speakers with 371 and adjust the settings in the AVR accordingly.

 

[denom]

Poem dedicated to Gurujeeeeeeeeeee

Come on you target for faraway laughter,
come on you stranger, you legend, you martyr, and shine!
You reached for the secret too soon, you cried for the moon.
Shine on you crazy diamond.
Threatened by shadows at night, and exposed in the light.
Shine on you crazy diamond.
Well you wore out your welcome with random precision,
rode on the steel breeze.
Come on you raver, you seer of visions,
come on you painter, you piper, you prisoner, and shine!

BUT
Hemant, this is apt for someone who has made some 'meaningful' contribution to society. Sadly, you eulogy is NOT apt for the one you intend it to be for:indifferent14:

 

[denom]

Some so called 'Gurus' feel that our forum is very dry and no informative threads are running. So decided to step in and provide some 'Gyaan'

http://www.hifivision.com/amplifier...eo-receiver-good-buy-urgent-reply-please.html

It will be appropriate if this 'Guru' leaves the forum then. Makes sense no???:indifferent14:

 

[Unnikrishnans]

Thank you for the update on speaker resistance, has anyone tried JBL 500 spreakers with Yamaha 371, 471 any thoughts on sound quality. Purpose blu-ray movies, ps3, music.

 

[Calvin]

Please advise on connecting the Yamaha 371, 471 reciever to JBL Cinema 500 speakers. The speakers are 8 Ohm while the reciever says 6 ohms, will it create problems if connect these recievers. Are Yamaha and JBL a decent combination.

This page will help you to set the receiver's impedance to 6 Ohms.

 

[hemantwaghe]

No Denom no
Contribution can be =ve or -ve

Read between lines -and words
and meaning will appear or SHINE!!

( My interpretation in RED)

Poem dedicated to Gurujeeeeeeeeeee

Come on you target for faraway laughter,( Everyones' target ,Laughable)
come on you stranger(Strange Behaviour), you legend (For wrong reasons), you martyr (Will BE), and shine!(Bahot shine marta hain!)
You reached for the secret too soon(half Baked Knowledge), you cried for the moon.( too much expectation and attension seeking)
Shine on you crazy diamond.
Threatened by shadows at night (own lack of knowledge), and exposed in the light.( What is happening now)
Shine on you crazy diamond.
Well you wore out your welcome with random precision,(random feka feki , copy paste)
rode on the steel breeze. ( in wrong threads ,of serious ppl)
Come on you raver (behaves like raveller), you seer of visions,( Under influence of lack of knowledge)
come on you painter (of wrong dreams), you piper (luring with wrong info) , you prisoner ( thinks this forum inadequete), and shine!

 

[rishiguru]

This may appear to be OT but I promise it is not!hyeah:

I am autoguru and I wish to enlighten everyone on some important points which you must consider before you buy your first/ next car.

Take an example of New Honda City (NHC).

The total weight of the car is 1100kg.

I am sure with this weight, there is no way the car can produce 120bhp
This is the truth, believe it or not. I will try to explain it.

The NHC has two power units. One if from the batery for the lights, wipers, etc. The other one is for the wheels (much bigger one).

Let us have a look at the engine now:

This V Tech engine supplies power to the wheels. So essentially this is the part which drives the car forward. However it is not as good as straight cylinders used for eg. in the good old Ambassador. You know the latest tecnologies may not be always good.

Yes the new cars have better features to die for, but what about the power?
They have reduced the size of the engine so much to make the car more compact so the power is compromised. You cannot go faster in these cars as much as you used to go in 1985s for the same reason.

Why am I saying this? Look at the size of the enigne, its definetly smaller than the Amby's enigne and I highly doubt if the displacement can be 1490 cc as specified in brochure. It could not be more than 1000cc for its size. The weight could be around 250kg even if it is made of aluminium.

This is what my 1 year intensive research says.

So for a car of 1000cc, like the Wagon R, the power cannot be more than 80 bhp @ 4000 rpm. The company is claiming 120bhp which is grossly misleading and they are cheap advertising tactics.

Thats not all. There is still more to consider.

The internal combustion engine has an efficiency of 55%. The remaining is wasted as heat and gases. The muffler on the city is smaller than the Amby's muffler so that means it cannot spit the gases as much as it should.

The heat dissipation is done by the oil cooling unit, the sump of which is again small in size. The oil cooling unit has a pump, which usually draws about 5% of the engine's power. Honda engine usually runs cool, so I am sure the pump must be of high speed, drawing more power than nominal.

Then we have the transmission system. Quite a good amount of power is lost in the cluthes due to slipping.
This will take out atleast 15% of the power generated by the engine.

What more, the battery gets power from the engine through the alternator.
Last but not the least, the engine is connected to the flywheel which again takes away some power.
Finally braking power also comes from the engine. There are many more components like power steering which take some amount of power from the engine.

By all means, out of the 80bhp this engine produces, only 30 bhp is available for the wheels @ 4000rpm.
So 30 bhp / 5 wheels (including the spare one) = 6bhp continous power per wheel when all wheels are driven together.
Look at it, with this power, do you think the car can exceed 50kmph speed?

I am saying all these by assuming the weight of the car is 1100 kg which translates the weight of the engine to be around 250kg.
Comparitively the amby's engine is 400kg and much bigger.

So its evident that Amby is much better and faster than NHC.

Thanks for patiently reading my white paper on "How to calculate power of an IC engine based on its size and weight" :clapping:

As I said before you define very well. Good interpretation of cars too.

Thanks.:thumbsup:

 

[musicmypassion]

Thank you for the update on speaker resistance, has anyone tried JBL 500 spreakers with Yamaha 371, 471 any thoughts on sound quality. Purpose blu-ray movies, ps3, music.

Hi,

It would be better that you do auditions with the Yamaha + JBL combination. You can audition JBL speakers at Cochin, I don't think that they have a showroom at Trivandrum. You can contact Mr. Anand, 9388606030 (JBL Cochin) to arrange a demo.

 

[prankey]

Thanks for the enlightenment.

I am in the learning curve too. I said that before.

And yes you are talking about dynamic power, the most important power factor for music listening.

But in my above post i talked about continuous power not dynamic.

Also I cannot see your so called "HUGE CAPACITORS" in this AVR, Yamaha must have nitro cooled and kept it away from sight since they are so huge.

They should be very close to the transformer, maybe under those tiny circuit boards extending from the transfo.

Next time I will try to use a magnifying glass to find your so called "HUGE CAPACITORS" under those tiny circuit boards.

May be capacitor nano technology? GOD knows.

And yes this "HUGE CAPACITORS" must have provided this amp with such high levels of dynamic headroom that Yamaha completely ommited to mention this parameter in the link spiro provided. :lol:

RX-V667 - AV Receivers/Amplifiers - Yamaha - UK and Ireland

By the way prankey, it is sometimes told that RMS power can be misleading?

Are you saying RMS & dynamic power are same? Kindly clarify.

I find there are huge debates in audio forums regarding this.

Can you show some light here?

Thanks prankey for providing us with your valuable comments.

Again, you seems to be a great "Physicist"! You are again going by the SIZE! While my current Yamaha has it, I believe 667 would also and almost all electronic circuits have it to keep RESERVED power as power supplies are usually always under rated only to provide average or above average power supply requirements instead of MAX power requirements. This holds true for your Norge Amp as well. Also, remember that these AVRs are typically more efficient than a low tech Stereo Amps! Apologies if I call your favorite low tech, but that is the truth that almost all the Stereo Amps are lower complexity equipment lacking refinements like extended SNR, lower distortion, lower power consumption and extended frequency response circuits.

I personally regard stereo amps as more musical primarily due to them having a sound signature good for sweet sounding music (I also prefer my music sound sweeter than harsher through a flat sounding AVRs like typically Yamaha). However, such sound signature can well come from the source and that is a primary reason I personally see Audiophiles using external DACs to get a feel good sound signature while they try to blame harsher sound to the AVR's DACs and heavy terms like Jitters while they actually loose fidelity after the DAC passes analog audio through a preamp (primarily responsible for the signature) through cables to another preamp of the AVR. Both these preamps alter sound characteristics and inherently add distortion and noise which would most certainly NOT be present in digital audio transfers.

So, in the end several of us do our own analysis and inject logic to it rather than having a concrete "science" or underlying logic behind their arguments. Like you are bothered mostly on SIZE and WEIGHT! Hopefully, you will never come across those digital amps and AVRs like from Samsung which may not stop you from laughing out loud for their weight(lessness) and tiny power supplies!

 

[rishiguru]

Again, you seems to be a great "Physicist"

You are DAMN right!!!

You have to be a Physicist or to think like him when you are technically judging an amp. Why?

Since all the amps in the world be it simple stereo to ultra high end network driven AVR's follow the strict laws of Physics. There is no escaping here.

You just cannot say that this transformer is better than the other since it is more musical and having shades of velvet touch in it.:lol:

You are again going by the SIZE!

SIZE does matter bro!!!

See you yourself used the word "HUGE CAPACITORS" in you post before. You tried to mean something by it. Can you tell me what?

You mean't to say the bigger it is the better it is. See.

Lets us take an example:

Say I want to have a 10,000uF, 50V electrolytic capacitor. Now this capacitor in a aluminium cylindrical casing in which a certain amount of the electrolyte (say 100 ml) needs to be poured. Now this casing will be of a certain size to contain 100 ml of this liquid having a specific weight of say 90gm.

Now say I want to have a 20,000uF, 50V electrolytic capacitor. Now more electrolyte needs to be poured in (say 200ml) to hold this electrical charge. Now this casing will be much bigger than former since it has to hold much more of this liquid weighing almost two time more than former.

So, you see the higher the rating of these caps in order to hold more charge, the bigger & heavier it gets.

So, More power means --> Bigger --> Heavier

Same goes for transformer. You want more watts from a transfo? Just go on winding more & more copper wire around the transformer core, weight goes on increasing, transformer getting bigger & bigger you are now getting more watts.

Simple.

While my current Yamaha has it,

What Yamaha do you have?

I believe 667 would also and almost all electronic circuits have it to keep RESERVED power as power supplies are usually always under rated only to provide average or above average power supply requirements instead of MAX power requirements.

You can go on believing anything you want. I said before & I say it again what I posted before about the 667 is my views regarding this amp, and you are free to think anything.

You are free to believe that this is a 1000 watts amp with 1000 watts in reserve. But in the end it is ultimately the sound that matters.

Also, remember that these AVRs are typically more efficient than a low tech Stereo Amps!

How? Please provide reasons why you think so.

Also, remember that these AVRs are typically more efficient than a low tech Stereo Amps! Apologies if I call your favorite low tech, but that is the truth that almost all the Stereo Amps are lower complexity equipment lacking refinements like extended SNR, lower distortion, lower power consumption and extended frequency response circuits.

By low tech what are you trying to suggest?

That the pre & power amp section of a top end AVR is far superior than that of any stereo amp in order to provide better audio fidelity? Clarify?

There are more surprises stored for you here if you say YES.

I personally regard stereo amps as more musical primarily due to them having a sound signature good for sweet sounding music (I also prefer my music sound sweeter than harsher through a flat sounding AVRs like typically Yamaha).

There is a reason why. You see the first batch of multi channel amps in early 1990's where very musical, since they were an extension of the evergreen stereo amps with more channels.

But as features like Dolby & true HD audio crept in, which required certain audio parameters for optimal movie experience, the audio companies started to built pre amps & circuits of these AVR's that would satisfy the requirements of these features, rather than being musical. So, now the AVR's are great for movies but are farther away from musicality.

I personally regard stereo amps as more musical primarily due to them having a sound signature good for sweet sounding music (I also prefer my music sound sweeter than harsher through a flat sounding AVRs like typically Yamaha). However, such sound signature can well come from the source and that is a primary reason I personally see Audiophiles using external DACs to get a feel good sound signature while they try to blame harsher sound to the AVR's DACs and heavy terms like Jitters while they actually loose fidelity after the DAC passes analog audio through a preamp (primarily responsible for the signature) through cables to another preamp of the AVR. Both these preamps alter sound characteristics and inherently add distortion and noise which would most certainly NOT be present in digital audio transfers.

See you again said all by yourself!!! When you bypass this AVR pre amps by extarn DACS, these movie centric AVR's suddenly becomes musical.

So, in the end several of us do our own analysis and inject logic to it rather than having a concrete "science" or underlying logic behind their arguments. Like you are bothered mostly on SIZE and WEIGHT! Hopefully, you will never come across those digital amps and AVRs like from Samsung which may not stop you from laughing out loud for their weight(lessness) and tiny power supplies!

As I said before, I presented my view, and you are free to think of anything that suits you.

Ultimately it is the sound that matters.

 

[prankey]

You are DAMN right!!!

You have to be a Physicist or to think like him when you are technically judging an amp. Why?

Since all the amps in the world be it simple stereo to ultra high end network driven AVR's follow the strict laws of Physics. There is no escaping here.

You just cannot say that this transformer is better than the other since it is more musical and having shades of velvet touch in it.:lol:



SIZE does matter bro!!!

See you yourself used the word "HUGE CAPACITORS" in you post before. You tried to mean something by it. Can you tell me what?

You mean't to say the bigger it is the better it is. See.

Lets us take an example:

Say I want to have a 10,000uF, 50V electrolytic capacitor. Now this capacitor in a aluminium cylindrical casing in which a certain amount of the electrolyte (say 100 ml) needs to be poured. Now this casing will be of a certain size to contain 100 ml of this liquid having a specific weight of say 90gm.

Now say I want to have a 20,000uF, 50V electrolytic capacitor. Now more electrolyte needs to be poured in (say 200ml) to hold this electrical charge. Now this casing will be much bigger than former since it has to hold much more of this liquid weighing almost two time more than former.

So, you see the higher the rating of these caps in order to hold more charge, the bigger & heavier it gets.

So, More power means --> Bigger --> Heavier

Same goes for transformer. You want more watts from a transfo? Just go on winding more & more copper wire around the transformer core, weight goes on increasing, transformer getting bigger & bigger you are now getting more watts.

Simple.



What Yamaha do you have?



You can go on believing anything you want. I said before & I say it again what I posted before about the 667 is my views regarding this amp, and you are free to think anything.

You are free to believe that this is a 1000 watts amp with 1000 watts in reserve. But in the end it is ultimately the sound that matters.



How? Please provide reasons why you think so.



By low tech what are you trying to suggest?

That the pre & power amp section of a top end AVR is far superior than that of any stereo amp in order to provide better audio fidelity? Clarify?

There are more surprises stored for you here if you say YES.



There is a reason why. You see the first batch of multi channel amps in early 1990's where very musical, since they were an extension of the evergreen stereo amps with more channels.

But as features like Dolby & true HD audio crept in, which required certain audio parameters for optimal movie experience, the audio companies started to built pre amps & circuits of these AVR's that would satisfy the requirements of these features, rather than being musical. So, now the AVR's are great for movies but are farther away from musicality.



See you again said all by yourself!!! When you bypass this AVR pre amps by extarn DACS, these movie centric AVR's suddenly becomes musical.



As I said before, I presented my view, and you are free to think of anything that suits you.

Ultimately it is the sound that matters.

It may be tough to continue this argument here. Wish we could have talked in person sometime to probably have a heated discussion. More or less we both agree on something, but you are enveloping your mind behind the physics of the power output of an amp/AVR.

Firstly a continuous power of 20Watts can well get a power amp give more than 100watts of continuous RMS power! If you understand this, you would probably understand what I am trying to tell you. And, no more than the size of a transformer, its Iron and Copper lose, type and quality of core, insulation and copper and even the accuracy of winding would make a HUGE difference in its efficiency. Add to it that many of the current power supplies miss a power transformer altogether through high current switching using IGBTs or even MOSFETs, you get clean, ripple free DC without any bulky transformer and max you would need is an isolation transformer to keep the input and output stage electrically isolated.

Now I know AVRs still use traditional transformers, but there still are many types with different efficiencies and more importantly different surge current capacity.

By huge capacitors, I meant large enough to carry the reserve power when needed. REMEMBER - Music or any audio NEVER require continuous DC power as the output is significantly varying AC SINEWAVES. So those capacitors are used repeatedly during high power applications to store and provide power when needed. So it keeps the cycle of charging and discharging continuously and most probably will never run out of power. Even THX applications warrant such use of extra power instead of talking AT ALL about continuous DC power which is really meaningless in Audio applications! I hope you got my point further here.

Talking of power efficiency, I was NOT talking of a Class AB power amp's efficiency but the overall efficiency which is usually much higher for an AVR deploying "green" electronic/digital circuits to control the unit which usually consumes much less power than a usual stereo amp!

I forgot to clarify on the dynamic power from your previous post - I was NOT talking of that! I was only talking of MINIMUM RMS power at 0.06% at full audio spectrum which the AVR can provided at one, two or more channels driven.

And, lastly, I know you read good English! When did I "answer myself" and how do you infer that using external DAC bypasses preamp of the AVR? I had written precisely - it DOESN'T! And that is the reason using external DAC is usually a BAD IDEA! (I know I am inviting trouble through such statements, but that is the truth I have witnessed first hand).

 

[rishiguru]

It may be tough to continue this argument here .... More or less we both agree on something

No no prankey, don't get me wrong, we are not having a heated discussion here, we are just exchanging our views, our thoughts.

I said repeatedly, that all I said about 667 are my views.

I learn't something from you post here, so thanks.

prankey, I have very vague idea related to RMS power. Can you refer some links & websites where I can get a little bit of idea related to it.

All i can think of is the the max continuous power a transfo can provide, sometimes a little more with its internal capacitance along with reserved joules from the power caps can some times provide two times or even more than the rated watts of a transfo for a moment of time. I assume you are referring this peak power as RMS power?

Lastly, looking at the internal shots of 667 amp & knowing its weight, can you assume how much continuous power it can pump out through all its channels simultaneously @ 20Hz to 20KHz?

I think you have enough knowledge for this.

Firstly a continuous power of 20Watts can well get a power amp give more than 100watts of continuous RMS power! If you understand this, you would probably understand what I am trying to tell you.

I can understand this very well. This is because music is not like a continuous sine wave. It has peaks of intensity, then relatively quiet periods. If music has a 20dB dynamic range then if the peaks are 200W, the average power is probably around 5W.

But I am taking about continuous power not RMS power. You can rate this 667 in PMPO terms also, this 20 watts of continuous power will go up to 2000 watts of PMPO power.

But then whats the use. I see only marketing use.

If I dare to pull an analogy, my seven channel Yamaha DSP-A2070 have a 800VA transfo, which according to me equates to 420 watts of continuous power. Divide it by seven you get 420/7 = 60 watts per channel.

Now considering A2070's Godzilla like over 60,000uF of power capacitors, if according to you those tiny caps of 667 can make do with

20 watts of continuous power in 667 is 100 watts of RMS power per channel

then

60 watts of continuous power in A2070 is 600 watts of RMS power per channel????

Its just does not makes any sense to me.

 

[prankey]

No no prankey, don't get me wrong, we are not having a heated discussion here, we are just exchanging our views, our thoughts.

I said repeatedly, that all I said about 667 are my views.

I learn't something from you post here, so thanks.

prankey, I have very vague idea related to RMS power. Can you refer some links & websites where I can get a little bit of idea related to it.

All i can think of is the the max continuous power a transfo can provide, sometimes a little more with its internal capacitance along with reserved joules from the power caps can some times provide two times or even more than the rated watts of a transfo for a moment of time. I assume you are referring this peak power as RMS power?

Lastly, looking at the internal shots of 667 amp & knowing its weight, can you assume how much continuous power it can pump out through all its channels simultaneously @ 20Hz to 20KHz?

I think you have enough knowledge for this.



I can understand this very well. This is because music is not like a continuous sine wave. It has peaks of intensity, then relatively quiet periods. If music has a 20dB dynamic range then if the peaks are 200W, the average power is probably around 5W.

But I am taking about continuous power not RMS power. You can rate this 667 in PMPO terms also, this 20 watts of continuous power will go up to 2000 watts of PMPO power.

But then whats the use. I see only marketing use.

If I dare to pull an analogy, my seven channel Yamaha DSP-A2070 have a 800VA transfo, which according to me equates to 420 watts of continuous power. Divide it by seven you get 420/7 = 60 watts per channel.

Now considering A2070's Godzilla like over 60,000uF of power capacitors, if those tiny caps of 667 can make do with

20 watts of continuous power in 667 is 100 watts of RMS power per channel

then

60 watts of continuous power in A2070 is 600 watts of RMS power per channel????

Its just does not makes any sense to me.

RMS is the continuous power equivalent of AC power! Simply put, your entire argument is BASELESS as you are comparing a derived DC continuous power with the AC RMS equivalent. In DC, power is constant, in AC, its always changing and hence we take RMS value which is a complex averaging of peak value.

I thought you are from electrical and electronics background and should have studied RMS since class 11th. Seems you need a lot of learning on basic terms before you arrive at a conclusion.

Your A2070 might have a higher rated power which may be used to generate more RMS power which AGAIN, is not directly proportional to the transformer rating as you are calculating. Dude, honestly, you need some basic learning before posting such strong comments which may mislead some newbies!

And audio is not produced in the most narrow range of 20dB! Even a hundred year old recording may have more range than that (except for some nerds at Tatasky doing dynamic range compression on almost all channels restricting the range to around 20dB of practically most pathetic range I have ever heard!). For a CD quality audio, the range could be as high as 96dB or even beyond. It can grow upto 120dB. Even a constant range audio will have sine waves, so your term of "continuous" sine wave is also inappropriate. Take the example of our utility power supply and assume it give a constant 220V of AC Voltage. Now we can NEVER call such voltage as "continuous" as its swinging from +110 to 0 to -110 volts! While its max voltage is 220V, its RMS will be typically 1/3rd (as I remember from my engineering days). Hope this helps you enlighten even more before you do your own analysis yet again (I do appreciate your inputs, but you have to do your homework before posting your recommendation and observations doubting manufacturer's OFFICIAL specs!).

Talking of dB, I hope you do know that even a difference of 6dB actually doubles the power.

Least you could do is to read this wiki: Audio power - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[rishiguru]

RMS is the continuous power equivalent of AC power! Simply put, your entire argument is BASELESS as you are comparing a derived DC continuous power with the AC RMS equivalent. In DC, power is constant, in AC, its always changing and hence we take RMS value which is a complex averaging of peak value.

I thought you are from electrical and electronics background and should have studied RMS since class 11th. Seems you need a lot of learning on basic terms before you arrive at a conclusion.

Your A2070 might have a higher rated power which may be used to generate more RMS power which AGAIN, is not directly proportional to the transformer rating as you are calculating. Dude, honestly, you need some basic learning before posting such strong comments which may mislead some newbies!

And audio is not produced in the most narrow range of 20dB! Even a hundred year old recording may have more range than that (except for some nerds at Tatasky doing dynamic range compression on almost all channels restricting the range to around 20dB of practically most pathetic range I have ever heard!). For a CD quality audio, the range could be as high as 96dB or even beyond. It can grow upto 120dB. Even a constant range audio will have sine waves, so your term of "continuous" sine wave is also inappropriate. Take the example of our utility power supply and assume it give a constant 220V of AC Voltage. Now we can NEVER call such voltage as "continuous" as its swinging from +110 to 0 to -110 volts! While its max voltage is 220V, its RMS will be typically 1/3rd (as I remember from my engineering days). Hope this helps you enlighten even more before you do your own analysis yet again (I do appreciate your inputs, but you have to do your homework before posting your recommendation and observations doubting manufacturer's OFFICIAL specs!).

Talking of dB, I hope you do know that even a difference of 6dB actually doubles the power.

Least you could do is to read this wiki: Audio power - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well I admit real musical waveforms are quite complex, rich in harmonics & broad in bandwidth, and completely rife with transients. The brute-force amplification of sine waves into a dummy (resistive) load, while quite objective and reproducible does not necessarily give a good representation of the real-world performance into a real world load since speaker with frequency-dependent overall impedance, capacitive and inductive reluctance.

I believe plenty of equipment will easily meet it's advertised power rating, then trip out on its thermal capability of heat dissipation after a few minute's. Guess there's a reason for the buying big buck product's.

Unfortunately, real-world performance may be very difficult to measure in an objective and "portable" way say, can you and I be on different continents, using different equipment, but measuring the same thing?. I don't think so.

Given all of this - it seems power ratings are not terribly useful at all if you ask me and all in general; one is better off to trust one's ears.

I have local made amps deliver approximately 25 watts per channel at something like 5% THD. They sound very good with my speakers in my room listening to the kinds of music I like.:lol:

In common use, the terms "RMS power" or "watts RMS" are erroneously used to describe average power. A 100 "watt RMS" amplifier can produce a sine-wave of 100 watt average into its load. With music, the total actual power would be less. With a square-wave, it would be more.

In the US acording to the Amplifier Rule CFR 16 Part 432 (39 FR 15387) was instated by the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) requiring audio power and distortion ratings for home entertainment equipment to be measured in a defined manner with power stated in RMS terms. The erroneous term "watts RMS" is actually used in CE regulations.

In any alternating current waveform (which an audio signal is), the voltage measured in RMS times the current measured in RMS is the AVERAGE power. The use of root-mean-square to measure voltage and current was developed decades before the phrase "high fidelity" was coined, specifically so that when the two are multiplied together, the result is average power.

Here's the details of how RMS voltage and current are used for average electrical power:

Root mean square - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This was apparently misunderstood by those making the 1960 to 1970's standard. With the wrong thinking that "RMS times RMS must equal RMS," and since this is a legal ruling about marketing audio amplifiers in the US, they have been rated in "RMS watts" ever since.

Actually thinking about the RMS rating is seems pretty good as basically a rounded AC equivalent of constant DC. Like anything, rating's are easily fudged here, too.

Responses cut short of 1kHz rating's at most cases. At most cases an amp rated at 200 watts could produce a 1 kHz test signal without running out of headroom, change the scenario to full 20Hz~20kHz range and let's see what happens. You will be terrified to see the results, it may even come down to 120 watts.

Most better amp's have lot's of short term power abilities, sometimes two times. Then there's availible output heat sink cooling area.

Ultimately it all boils down to what i said before, it is the sound that ultimately matters.

 

[Santy]

Gotcha...hyeah: Guruji is exposed.

Why he should be totally disregarded? He simply copy pastes articles and posts written by somebody else in some other site: It is shocking to copy paste others work and give an impression that he is writing all these and thereby trying to prove he is knowledgeable:

Have a look at this site

The above post from guruji is a nothing but a collage of various posts in a particular thread in audiokarma.org.

Guruji, google is your best friend but also your first enemy as it will faithfully display where from you copy paste all your stuff (read 1 year research). :clapping:

Well I admit real musical waveforms are quite complex, rich in harmonics & broad in bandwidth, and completely rife with transients. The brute-force amplification of sine waves into a dummy (resistive) load, while quite objective and reproducible does not necessarily give a good representation of the real-world performance into a real world load since speaker with frequency-dependent overall impedance, capacitive and inductive reluctance.

I believe plenty of equipment will easily meet it's advertised power rating, then trip out on its thermal capability of heat dissipation after a few minute's. Guess there's a reason for the buying big buck product's.

Unfortunately, real-world performance may be very difficult to measure in an objective and "portable" way say, can you and I be on different continents, using different equipment, but measuring the same thing?. I don't think so.

Given all of this - it seems power ratings are not terribly useful at all if you ask me and all in general; one is better off to trust one's ears.

I have local made amps deliver approximately 25 watts per channel at something like 5% THD. They sound very good with my speakers in my room listening to the kinds of music I like.:lol:

In common use, the terms "RMS power" or "watts RMS" are erroneously used to describe average power. A 100 "watt RMS" amplifier can produce a sine-wave of 100 watt average into its load. With music, the total actual power would be less. With a square-wave, it would be more.

In the US acording to the Amplifier Rule CFR 16 Part 432 (39 FR 15387) was instated by the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) requiring audio power and distortion ratings for home entertainment equipment to be measured in a defined manner with power stated in RMS terms. The erroneous term "watts RMS" is actually used in CE regulations.

In any alternating current waveform (which an audio signal is), the voltage measured in RMS times the current measured in RMS is the AVERAGE power. The use of root-mean-square to measure voltage and current was developed decades before the phrase "high fidelity" was coined, specifically so that when the two are multiplied together, the result is average power.

Here's the details of how RMS voltage and current are used for average electrical power:

Root mean square - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This was apparently misunderstood by those making the 1960 to 1970's standard. With the wrong thinking that "RMS times RMS must equal RMS," and since this is a legal ruling about marketing audio amplifiers in the US, they have been rated in "RMS watts" ever since.

Actually thinking about the RMS rating is seems pretty good as basically a rounded AC equivalent of constant DC. Like anything, rating's are easily fudged here, too.

Responses cut short of 1kHz rating's at most cases. At most cases an amp rated at 200 watts could produce a 1 kHz test signal without running out of headroom, change the scenario to full 20Hz~20kHz range and let's see what happens. You will be terrified to see the results, it may even come down to 120 watts.

Most better amp's have lot's of short term power abilities, sometimes two times. Then there's availible output heat sink cooling area.

Ultimately it all boils down to what i said before, it is the sound that ultimately matters.

 

[hemantwaghe]

Gotcha...hyeah: Guruji is exposed.

Why he should be totally disregarded? He simply copy pastes articles and posts written by somebody else in some other site: It is shocking to copy paste others work and give an impression that he is writing all these and thereby trying to prove he is knowledgeable:

Have a look at this site

The above post from guruji is a nothing but a collage of various posts in a particular thread in audiokarma.org.

Guruji, google is your best friend but also your first enemy as it will faithfully display where from you copy paste all your stuff (read 1 year research). :clapping:

SHOCKING !!!!

GUruji kya hain yeh!!

From the person we idolize ...

Santy my castle of respect is collapsed :yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo: ( cheap translation of hindi dialouges!)

So frustrated i pulled my screwdriver and look what I am planning to do ..

Coutsy -Mard and Deewar )